The Cessationist Debate

Zechariah Eshack: 0:00

Welcome to the Restless Theologian podcast, where we focus on having insightful conversations in biblical history and theology. I'm your host, Zechariah Eshack. We're going to be discussing and examining cessationism and we're going to be taking a look at whether the miraculous gifts, whether tongues, prophecy and healing, are still active in the church today. So what we're going to do is we're going to look at arguments just from a biblical perspective as well as a theological framework, and we're also going to bring in critiques from those opposed to cessationism, and those include we're going to touch briefly on Gavin Ortland, dr Michael Brown, pastor Mark Driscoll and T Wright as well, and so those are just a little bit of like the YouTube videos that me and Cory, my guest. How you doing, Cory?

Cory Reckner: 1:00

Hey, good, zach, how are you

Zechariah Eshack: 1:01

Good? Good, thanks for coming back on. I appreciate you taking the time today.

Cory Reckner: 1:05

Yeah, of course, love being here.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:07

Thank you, thank you, yeah, so this one's a really interesting topic, cessationism, because up until this point I have not put a whole lot of thought into it and I haven't really known much about it, and I would say so I watched the cessationist film, which is a film that's a documentary by Les Lampere. He's the guy who also did, um, the spirit and truth documentary as well as the Calvinist documentary, and, uh, he's, he's actually done a little bit of work, um, like secular work on, like transformers and a few other videos, uh. But so what is cessationism? It's basically, it holds that the miraculous gifts have ceased with the apostles or shortly thereafter, after the New Testament was completed, and so we're going to bring in Hebrews, chapter two, verses three, through four.

Zechariah Eshack: 2:01

How shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation through 4. How shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord and it was attested to by those who heard, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will. So the view is that the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit does continue in works such as regeneration, sanctification, uh, through prayer, um, as well as illumination of the scriptures, um. So next, I would like to just um kind of unpack the four different views, or actually we're just going to briefly touch on them, if you wouldn't mind reading. Uh for me, the four different types of cessationists and their explanations.

Cory Reckner: 2:48

Yeah. So the first one is called classical cessationists, which means believing miraculous gifts ceased with the apostles, so that's classical. Then there's consistent cessationists, which tie the cessation of gifts directly to the closure of the canon and foundational offices, like the apostles and prophets Ephesians 2.20 is a good reference for that. There's concentric or pragmatic cessationists, and these allow for rare signs in unreached mission fields, but they're not normative in the local church. And then the last one is hardline cessationists. Hardline, they deny all post-apostolic miraculous claims, often polemical against what we would call continuationism, which is the exact opposite of cessationism right.

Zechariah Eshack: 3:48

Yeah, continuationism is basically that you believe that the sign gifts have continued to the present day.

Zechariah Eshack: 3:57

They don't stop until basically the end times, until the last day. So that's a continuationist view and yeah, so I really loved um kind of diving deeper into this. Um, I didn't for me personally, I didn't agree a hundred percent with the cessationist documentary. At least there was a claim in there that um, obviously I think I, where I found myself to fit the most in line with um between just all those different definitions, is consistent since a uh, cessationist, that's where I think I fit most closely. So it's like you believe the gifts directly related by the apostles, profits, like they've all, like those sign gifts have ceased and as well as their offices have ceased Um, so there was these three different 65 year periods that the film had held that, okay, these three 65 periods from you know, like Moses and Joshua, elijah and Elisha, jesus and the apostles, those three distinct epics were when the sign gifts were prevalent. So I thought it was interesting that Gavin Ortland, kind of you know, did a rebuttal of the film and of that in particular.

Zechariah Eshack: 5:15

But we, you know, I would love to get your take on it. You know, so far, that's funny.

Cory Reckner: 5:21

I've never honestly thought about the fact that it was. It was taking place during the 65 year increment of time, right. With these, these three different portions of biblical history. So that's hilarious because it's like, oh wow, that's very specific.

Zechariah Eshack: 5:36

That is very specific Even when I even when I was watching the film, I kind of, you know, had a little bit of a raised eyebrow and I'm like I don't know if that fits in line with um, cause I think Gavin Ortlund does have a point in his response video with just the idea that, um, uh, what did he bring up? He brought up, uh, you know, times in between those timeframes, such as, like, Samson, Daniel, uh, some of the angelic visions and some of the healings that were done. You know, post Elijah, the way the film put it is almost like there was those three clusters where that's, you know, it's like this is when this is actually defined as being a miraculous time period.

Cory Reckner: 6:16

Yeah, Right, Compared to, like you said, it being spread out. It's happening, you know, let's say, in between the chapters and all of that right in between the Bible books. These are the. It's almost like these are the epochs of, like you said, of the miracles times, right. Yeah. And you said that Gavin Ortland. So he I'm sorry you have to remind me, did you say that he doesn't agree with that, or he does agree with that? No, no.

Zechariah Eshack: 6:58

He was refuting it, you know, and he was bringing up other times in scriptural history outside of those time frames when miracles occurred.

Cory Reckner: 7:09

Gotcha Okay.

Zechariah Eshack: 7:11

And I thought that that was a fair rebuttal. On that ground, I would say the biggest thing that I would bring up about him and his response one of the things I was thinking was between him and mark driscoll. I felt like that they both were getting a. It's like an error in categories, right, because how I feel like they're. The error is is that they're kind of conflating the um agents of god, which, meaning prophets or apostles, and the sign gifts that they had, um, that there seems to be a conflation between that and then just other miraculous things that God does right.

Zechariah Eshack: 7:52

Let's just say not in a situation like we're, like Jonah, for example, when God calmed that storm after Jonah was thrown over the boat, Okay, there was no actual human person that was involved in stopping that. That was a direct um miraculous work by God. That's outside of normal nature, I guess. Yeah, right, yeah. Cause he in a divine way intervened. Um, what do you think about this? Does that make sense to you?

Cory Reckner: 8:23

It does. Um, so you're about this. Does that make sense to you? It does, so you're saying that the argument that's being made is that these very specific, miraculous, interventionist happenings were so specific and directly tied to, like these biblical narrative portrayals that it doesn't necessarily equate to. This is a normative type of a thing. Like this is like explaining a little bit more about whatever, like something really specific, defining the moment in God's story, compared to like this is just how people do it every single day in the church, right? Or this is how people have always done it, like in the ancient Hebrew religions, right? Like do you know what I mean? Like this is it's so specific that it can't be done again. That's why I'm trying to get a little more clarity on your position on the whole thing too, because you said they're making a category error and I want to hear what you say about that.

Zechariah Eshack: 9:28

Yeah, yeah, so I think that I probably could rephrase it a little bit better. So I think that the category error is is basically this so there is a distinction that should be made between the direct um, like, say, peter and, and Paul directly healing somebody, so that God is using an agent of his to perform a miraculous work, right. That to me is a little bit different than the providential acts of God when it comes to miracle, like even let's put it in today's context. So I noticed that the error that Mark Driscoll was making was like oh, we believe in prayer, we believe that someone prays and a person may be healed. So god uses means. It's just the means are different in the sense that, like, um, you know, he may or may not heal somebody through prayer, right, but that is very different than an apostle laying hands on somebody and healing them instantaneously.

Cory Reckner: 10:28

Okay, right.

Zechariah Eshack: 10:29

Yeah, so like their specific sign gifts were, because the argument is is that their particular sign gifts were correlated to their distinct offices that they held. Does that distinction, those distinctions, make sense to you?

Cory Reckner: 10:44

It does, and I guess the way that my mind works is I guess I haven't really ever thought of it that way, right, like I've never really thought of it that specifically, but it makes more sense when you explain it that way, because you're saying based off of the offices right, I love that term that you're using office. Right, this is their office, this is their role. Yeah, and with a role comes a responsibility, and due to the responsibility, they're going to perform a certain way with specific whatever. Um, so that's not true of everybody, though all the time, like I'm thinking Moses, right, parting the red sea, it's like you don't really see another example of that happening throughout all scripture. Like to that degree, right. Yeah.

Cory Reckner: 11:28

I know Joshua had an instance where that had happened, but it wasn't the same thing. It was the Jordan River, and you don't see Jesus even parting the Red Sea, right? I mean, you see him doing miraculous things with water all the time, but because of Moses's office, and you know what he was expected to be doing, that was something that miraculously happened and it was such a divine interventionist, an interventionistic miracle, that it's not expected to be such a regular thing, right?

Cory Reckner: 11:58

right yeah, but like with offices like you said, that makes more sense too, because it's like okay, so somebody's office, like, let's say, just more of a, you know, modern day example, if you're a CEO I'm sorry, maybe not a CEO let's say, if you're like an operations manager, you're expected to perform certain jobs. Yeah.

Cory Reckner: 12:15

Being an office. I'm sorry. An operations manager, right, but if you're a marketing manager, that's going to look a little different, you know. So you can't always expect a marketing manager to do the same things as the operations manager, yeah Right. So it's just different because of their roles.

Zechariah Eshack: 12:32

Yeah, and I do think that the sign gifts do seem to be an act of confirming that these apostles were of God.

Cory Reckner: 12:45

Yeah, and sent by God. Okay, yeah, that makes sense too. Yeah, yeah, I like that.

Zechariah Eshack: 12:49

Yeah, so, um, real quick, I think I kind of wanted to briefly touch on it, cause cause, I mean, you could look at it a few different ways. Obviously, different denominations are going to look at this differently, like, for example, like so the, so that the sign gifts continue. Obviously, in some other denominations, the offices that the apostles had would continue, I think, in Romanism and orthodoxy, right. So I guess you could look at it a certain way that, like in Rome, it would be the chair of Peter, and then I'm guessing they would probably reason that the other disciples' roles that are underneath Peter would probably be maybe the cardinals, or the cardinals and bishops however you would like to look at that and then, I think, maybe an orthodoxy, because they would see it as a continuation too right, they're continuing those specific roles. Obviously, our position is different than that.

Zechariah Eshack: 13:46

From the reform standpoint, I would say this that, like you, would take the passage that the church is built on the apostles and prophets, with Christ being the chief cornerstone, right, so the foundation is already laid and so, whatever abilities and powers and signs that came with, like the prophets or the apostles, I believe that those signs did cease and I think I mean, I think it's just looking at the pattern of scripture, right, because revelation is closed.

Zechariah Eshack: 14:19

So that was a big question I had when I was watching some of the videos, because someone like John Piper, he's kind of continuationist but he's kind of more cautious about it. But the thing is, when you talk about prophecy and I feel like a lot of people are all over the place and I'm like what is being said here, if it was important enough to be prophetic, I feel like it wanted to be a closed canon. Does that make sense? Cause there there's that passage in revelation where you know it says in the book that like, if anyone adds, let me see if I can find it Adds to or takes away words from this book.

Cory Reckner: 14:58

They'll be cursed, yeah, yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 15:00

And you could think of it because it does use prophecy of this book. So some people have interpreted that to mean the whole scriptures altogether, or maybe just specifically the book of Revelation by John. Either way, it does sound like that when it comes to the end time stuff, and that's usually where you get more of the dispensationalists Some of them that are a little bit more fringe making these prophetic declarations of what they think is going to happen next.

Cory Reckner: 15:29

And, like you said, I can get very messy.

Zechariah Eshack: 15:31

It can't get very messy. It's not just speculative, like sometimes. They'll actually make prophecies about it. So what are your thoughts on that?

Cory Reckner: 15:40

Yeah, oh, my goodness, what a loaded subject, right?

Zechariah Eshack: 15:45

I know.

Cory Reckner: 15:45

Especially that. Yeah, oh my goodness, what a loaded subject right I know, especially with prophecy, yeah, um. So prophecy is such a funny one to me because, you know, I guess you don't even always need to be like a believer to sometimes prophecy something. You know what what I mean? Yeah, you're making a prediction.

Cory Reckner: 16:05

A prediction of some kind, and only God knows if it's going to happen or not. Right, yeah, 100% at least. And I've had people in my life like believers that maybe have approached me and they're like I sense God is going to do this in your life.

Cory Reckner: 16:25

Yeah, and it didn't happen you know, but then I've had other people say the same thing and it did happen. And so for me, um, there's a lot of trickiness with prophecy, because I know when you, when you get into Paul's teachings, especially where he talks about that, like in Corinthians he's talking to Corinth and all those believers he mentions tongues and prophecy. I know we're going to get into all this stuff too, but with prophecy in particular, it was fascinating because it's almost like he said prophecy is used to draw unbelievers to Christ, right, because he says if everybody in there is prophesying, the unbeliever will be convicted and then they'll drop to their knees and say Jesus is Lord. But with tongues he's like that gets messy, because if there's no interpreter, the unbeliever will be like you guys are out of your mind, right, and I think For the speaking in tongues.

Zechariah Eshack: 17:18

You mean For the speaking in tongues? Yeah, Okay.

Cory Reckner: 17:20

And I'm sure if you've kind of been around the Christian block for a little while, you've seen the opposite happen in both of those regards, right, you've seen maybe somebody, or maybe I've heard testimony of somebody that said they heard somebody speaking in tongues and it really hit them hard and then that led them to Christ, you know.

Cory Reckner: 17:40

Or the opposite happened, where all these people, like you said, maybe in like a messy prophesying environment, all these people were prophesying over somebody and they're like that led me completely away from Christ, you know, because it was just weird you know, so I think it's tricky, because the Bible specifically says in the Old Testament if there's somebody that says they're a prophet and they start prophesying over you and what they say doesn't come true, then you'll know that they were a false prophet, right? Yeah.

Cory Reckner: 18:10

But what happens when we've got these people out there that would claim, like you mentioned, the offices are still going on, they're continuing on and they say they're a prophet, right, right, but maybe they're not really doing things that are questionable necessarily. They're just like trying to give words of God to people, right, and some of that stuff happens for some people, right. Well, it's really easy for maybe somebody that doesn't know scripture as well to be like, well then it's true, right, and they are a prophet, Right, they said they were what they've told me. It has come true to some degree, or whatever. What they've told me, it has come true to some degree or whatever. So I've got to believe that these offices continue, right, yeah, okay, well, that's confusing, right.

Cory Reckner: 19:06

But then you've got some of the rest of us out here who might not be considered quote-unquote prophets, but we will also prophesy into each other's lives, you know, because of Scripture, right, because scripture is a very prophetic tool used by God to pronounce, maybe not necessarily predictions, right, but like, like security in Christ. Or you know, salvation mechanisms that play out right. And when we speak into each other's lives for encouragement, sometimes we actually prophesy over each other's lives. You know what I mean, but I don't think it's necessarily always a predictive thing, and I'm sorry, maybe I'm know what I mean, but I don't think it's necessarily always a predictive thing, and I'm sorry, maybe I'm opening up so many extra doors. I don't want to get you off track here, but I'm just saying with the idea of prophesying alone. That's why, to me, prophecy can be very tricky. You know what I mean.

Zechariah Eshack: 19:39

Well, I think there's a distinction to be made between prophecy and encouragement.

Cory Reckner: 19:44

Sure Right Sure.

Zechariah Eshack: 19:45

Or declaring something to another, believer that you know. You did this. Therefore, you know you did X therefore, y, you know, right, um, so you could make predictions, you know speculative, or you can make educated guesses about things, and you can use information from the Bible to make those type of educated guesses about what may happen in a church and like, but I don't see that as or in a person's life, but that's very distinct and different than an actual, than actual prophecy Do you think so, I think so, I don I don't think, I don't, I think that I think prophecy a lot of times.

Zechariah Eshack: 20:27

Um, at least where my mind goes to is that these are, uh, that god used the prophet. He spoke through the prophet and it's his word and I think um that information obviously was inscripturated, so I don't think that there's any need for prophecy today.

Cory Reckner: 20:47

Personally, but you mean by that? You mean there's no need for, like the future, predicting?

Zechariah Eshack: 20:53

Of anything.

Cory Reckner: 20:54

Of anything. Nope and specifically for, like all of God's people too, because we have that, like you said, kind of already contained in the scriptures.

Zechariah Eshack: 21:04

Yeah, yeah, because there's that other passage that talks, where I think it's Paul that talks about it. Let me see if I can get my get it pulled up here, a commonly known passage 2 Timothy, chapter 3, verses 16 through 17. All scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction and for training in righteousness. That the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Zechariah Eshack: 21:29

Yeah, comment that all scripture is breathed out by God and that it's profitable and that the man of God may be complete. So what I kind of see happening is that I think in more of the charismatic movement, for example, you have people that are praying for these specific sign gifts and elevating those things and instead of what Paul talks about like faith, hope and love, you know, with the greatest of these being love Right, and you know cause. What does he say? You know, if I have you know the gift of uh, to speak in angelic tongues, or if I have you know the gift of miracles. I mean, he goes through like a whole the whole, thing, yeah, the whole thing.

Zechariah Eshack: 22:21

And he said but I have not love. The chief thing to be sought is love.

Zechariah Eshack: 22:36

And so and you'll have to provide a little bit of your background because I know that you have some experience with this Because when I grew up because my parents, for example, when they first kind of converted I was pretty young, I mean, I was I don't know exactly what timeframe, but I was probably around five or six and um, I remember they got into like TBN and stuff. Okay, and I think it's cause they didn't really have a starting point, they didn't know where to go.

Zechariah Eshack: 22:57

So that was like the first thing, and obviously they would have their, you know, 24, 40 hour give-a-thons and they would have all these like supposed healings by benny hen and all these others which you're, I'm sure you're familiar with. And I've been in churches, uh say, like assemblies of god, where they do the speaking in tongues, and I've also been in um, I think it's um. What denomination is like the? Is it the church of christ? I think um, but anyway, they, they would do the slain in the spirit thing too. Oh yeah, and I remember it being very off-put just because it's weird, and I wasn't sure if it was just because I was off-put because it's different, or if I was off-put because I, even at a young age, was like I don't know if this is of God. Yeah, so I know you have a little bit of. You've had some experience in the charismatic movement, right.

Cory Reckner: 23:46

A little bit. You've been to churches like that, yeah. So just to sum everything up about my background, so I was not really raised with any denomination specifically like more than others. Yeah. My grandma was a Methodist and she took me to Methodist church.

Zechariah Eshack: 24:04

That's funny. Mine was too. Okay, yeah, that's funny, mine was too. Okay, yeah, that's fine. That's pretty normal for a lot of grandmas. She was that she converted to be Roman Catholic because my grandpa was Roman. Catholic Okay, got it, yeah, yeah.

Cory Reckner: 24:14

Yeah Well, so my grandma was Methodist and she took me to Methodist church quite a bit when I was a little kid and then I kind of just stopped going because I just didn't want to go to church anymore. When I was a younger kid and my dad, who was divorced from my mom, he experimented with pretty much everything Like. He went to charismatic churches, he went to Baptist churches, he went to literally like all different kinds. He was even a part of the Roman Catholic Church for a little while too.

Zechariah Eshack: 24:41

OK, so he tried out a lot of different denominations, yeah.

Cory Reckner: 24:44

And he also, like you know, not to you know, put my dad on the spot here, but he a few times when he was kind of walking away from God, he got into like Buddhism and like Taoism and all kinds of stuff Right. So he literally dabbled with not everything but a lot of different things.

Cory Reckner: 25:01

So I kind of had a mixed variety of a perspective growing up with all of that and I think it kind of confused me yeah um, I don't think I witnessed too much of like the slain in the spirit stuff when I was growing up, but I did see, like the tongues that uh, you know practice and I saw a lot of um, just a little bit more charismatic churches. You know kind of expressing themselves by dancing and everything on stage at. You know kind of expressing themselves by dancing and everything on stage at. You know church functions and all that. Yeah.

Cory Reckner: 25:28

So I saw a lot of that. Then I saw the Baptist perspective was very conservative. There wasn't as much, you know, like dancing right and other you know free formed stuff. So growing up I didn't really know what to think about any of that because I also kind of walked away from God when I was younger also. So I just kind of saw that stuff and said, oh, it's just these Christian people kind of being a little crazy here and there, but whatever. And then when I recommitted my life to Christ in my early twenties I didn't know what to do. So I kind of went out seeking different experiences, just trying to look for what maybe could be true about all this. And one of the first churches I got involved with they were super charismatic and they were all about speaking in tongues and getting they called it drunk in the spirit.

Zechariah Eshack: 26:14

Yeah, I remember that yeah.

Cory Reckner: 26:16

Yeah, so they were all about that and I had a few experiences where they were like trying to get me to be a part of that whole thing. Yeah, there was one event I went to so wild I mean it was impressive, but it was wild Okay. It was at a church. They recreated the whole Old Testament tabernacle and Ark of the Covenant. Oh, wow.

Cory Reckner: 26:37

Like throughout their whole church and they would take us on a tour of it. And then at the end they're like, okay, so now because you've had the true experience of. And then at the end they're like, okay, so now because you've had the true experience of the Shekinah glory, we're going to slain you in the spirit.

Cory Reckner: 26:53

And they literally went around and just started pretty much pushing people onto the ground and saying now speak in tongues, right, and I was a new believer. I'm like I don't know what to do here, so maybe I should just do it or try to do it. And I tried to do it, there was like nothing that happened. I'm like I'm trying to talk in like this tongue language, but I don't know. What is it like? What do I do, you know? Yeah.

Cory Reckner: 27:12

So like oh, just let it free flow, Just open your mouth and just start talking. And I did and I'm like I feel like I'm kind of just pretending a little bit. Yeah.

Cory Reckner: 27:21

And so there were a few more experiences I had like that, nothing to that extreme degree, but a few other experiences where I would meet up with Christians. They do the whole let's all speak in tongues thing, and so, yeah, I had a little bit of a charismatic beginning with my faith in Christ when I came back to him and then it grew much more conservative. I started getting involved with much more conservative church who didn't agree with any of that and they would also challenge all of that. So I kind of got both extremes right. Yeah.

Cory Reckner: 27:48

And then I think it eventually molded me to who I am today, to where I could kind of see both sides and why people, would you know, agree and side with those sides. But uh, me personally I would say, uh, because of my own experience, there's not much difference with how confused I can be about that stuff now compared to when I didn't even know Christ, because so many Christians practice so many different things I think you know, especially with like the drunk in the spirit stuff, the speaking in tongues nonstop and all that. I personally believe that that kind of sides more on the side of error and misinterpretation of scripture than I would say it's based and grounded historical knowledge of the scriptures, right. An example of what I mean by that is the Bible, where Paul says do not be drunk with wine but be filled with the spirit right. People have taken that verse and turned it into don't get drunk with wine but get drunk with the spirit right.

Zechariah Eshack: 28:59

Is that? Where is that? That's probably where that came from.

Cory Reckner: 29:01

It is yeah, that's that's the verse that I would always hear. Yeah, right, and when I was a newer believer, I'd asked this older guy who was my mentor at the time. I was like what, what is Paul saying there? And he's like, oh, he's saying to get drunk in the spirit, like the Holy spirit will provide you with so much sensation that it's. And I heard that. I'm like, oh wow, I didn't know we could party like this, being Christians, you know.

Zechariah Eshack: 29:26

Yeah. And that the Holy Spirit would pretty much— it's a new type of high. It really is yeah.

Cory Reckner: 29:30

Nothing like it. But yeah, so experimenting with that and having a result that was completely flat, I'm like I don't think that that's going to work right for me. And then I started hearing other testimonies of Christians that experienced the same thing. They're like yeah, I tried that Didn't work at all. Yeah. You know. So I'm like okay. So that's kind of weird, that like it's so projected onto people to be like that, and for these teachers and leaders to say that that's actually what Paul is saying to me is kind of weird. Yeah.

Cory Reckner: 30:00

And I'm like it's totally misinterpreting what he's actually saying. With that, I'll just sidebar real fast. I believe what Paul is saying there is you used to get drunk with wine, but now you're a believer and the Holy Spirit hasn't dwelt you, so let him fill you up more with spiritual power, not spiritual drunkenness. You know what I?

Cory Reckner: 30:21

mean. But it's just a little variation of what you might hear when you read that passage, and I think that that could be true of like all the spiritual gifts you know, like miracles, right? I know we're going to talk about miracles too. Somebody could read that and be like, oh well, god's giving us the power of miracles, like Moses or like Paul, right, or like Jesus, and so we are expected to perform these miraculous things. It's like, okay, well, maybe you're misinterpreting the scripture. Did you ever think of it that way?

Zechariah Eshack: 30:49

You know, yeah, Well, one note about your the wine verse. I do think there's parts in scripture that talk about like wine, you know, make, make it the heart glad, and stuff like that.

Zechariah Eshack: 31:00

Oh yeah sure, and I think that maybe, and I guess in that sense, if you're going to you know, we can maybe make the correlation that that type of joy is obviously now to be found with the Holy Spirit Right, it's kind of crazy that some denominations it's almost like you don't reach that top-tier Christianity until you hit that mark where you're actually speaking in tongues. Yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 31:26

And for me, I definitely don't think it's what a lot of people have perceived it to be, because I think that tongues have ceased and so I don't believe in. So I think a lot of people that do it now. It's just gibberish where it's like. I think that when it was done in the book of Acts, I think they were actually known languages and I think that it could be. There's a couple of reasonings why that could be. One could be to break that language barrier and spread the gospel faster so you can speak in someone's native tongue. Second, it was actually supposed to be at least the movie Cessationist makes the claim that.

Zechariah Eshack: 32:02

So when the speaking of tongues was actually a sign that, um, so when the speaking of tongues was actually a sign, not necessarily to the, to the believers, but the unbelievers. So the unbelieving, uh, jews, for examples, like, say, the pharisees and sadducees, who didn't believe and you know, I think that there were some that obviously did believe but, um, but it's a sign to them that that the holy spirit and that the, the kingdom, was actually expanding to the gentiles and it wasn't just, uh, exclusively israel, right, because you know, like paul makes a mention in romans 9, that not all who are israel are israel and that it's, um, the people of the promise, not those of the physical descent of abraham right you know what I mean so it extends out to not just his.

Zechariah Eshack: 32:50

It's not necessarily his physical seed, or else, you know, because what would the pharisees oftentimes claim, you know?

Cory Reckner: 32:56

we're the children of abraham.

Zechariah Eshack: 32:57

That means we're the children of god yeah, right, yeah, and you're not, yeah, yeah. But then he uh says back you know, you're children of satan, satan. So you know, I mean, obviously jesus didn't make that, make that correlation, just because they were physically descended, uh, you know, from a grace right oriented view I was gonna.

Cory Reckner: 33:20

I'm sorry, I'm gonna interrupt you but I was gonna further point too about the tongues, especially specifically in the book of Acts, where it was almost like a tool used to spread the gospel, to expand the gospel and to include the Gentiles. At that point I wanted to share with you a really cool thing I'd heard from Michael Heiser. I know I've always brought him up on our podcast here, but your podcast, sorry. If you look up ChatGPT, who runs the Restless Theologian podcast, sometimes it will say Cory Reckner, let's make that clear now. That is not true. Okay, this is Zach's podcast.

Zechariah Eshack: 33:54

You're writing all the scripts for me.

Cory Reckner: 33:56

I am yeah, that's right. Yep, it's my podcast.

Zechariah Eshack: 33:58

I'm just an AI bot. I'm just saying what you tell me.

Cory Reckner: 34:00

That's right, yep, just follow my lead. No, so Michael Heiser actually makes a good point about Pentecost, specifically because the author Luke, when he wrote this whole section of the story, it was actually like part two of an Old Testament narrative with the Tower of Babel.

Zechariah Eshack: 34:21

Yeah, I've heard that correlation before.

Cory Reckner: 34:22

Yeah, when, instead of separating all the nations, he was starting to bring them back together. Got it. Yeah, because Babel was all about you know. They were trying to build a tower to heaven and replace God and God's like. Well, because of that, I'm just going to confuse the nations and everyone just starts speaking their own language. Yeah.

Cory Reckner: 34:39

Well, what happens in Pentecost? Because of the Holy Spirit, they're all given the gift of tongues, to speak different languages, so it's bringing them all back together, you know. So it's kind of like a full circle of the spiritual power of God to bring people to him, because of the gospel. Yeah, but it's also in reference to this separationist standpoint from the Old Testament, because of what that was declaring right.

Zechariah Eshack: 35:04

Yeah, standpoint from the Old Testament, because of what that was declaring, right? Yeah, it's almost like he's saying you know you wanted unity in error and falsehood and idolatry, but then you know it's like I'm going to bring about true unity through you know, through the Holy Spirit. Through the Holy Spirit. Yeah, yeah in Christ. I wanted to make a couple comments about Mark Driscoll, and then we'll move on to probably NT Wright. And then also, who's the third guy?

Zechariah Eshack: 35:30

it was Dr Michael Brown right, okay so real quick I wanted to say about Mark Driscoll, one of the videos I watched with him in it. Like I said, I think that he's making a category error because he's correlating prayer and the fulfillment of prayer to God as equivalent to these sign gifts. Also too, he kind of would make statements that oh, you know the gift of evangelism. He was kind of correlating that with the sign gifts where it's like. I don't think that that's the same thing at all. I think evangelism can be done by any believer I don't think it's I don't.

Zechariah Eshack: 36:07

You know what I mean. I don't think it's a gift that's necessarily unique. I think some people are better at it than others. Sure, um, but uh. So there was that comedy made but he also was kind of um, honestly, I think pretty down, like I usually like his takes, even though I'm not a big driscoll fan.

Zechariah Eshack: 36:24

Like usually when it comes to family type stuff, I think uh, but you could kind of tell driscoll is um, you know he's kind of a celebrity type pastor, oh yeah, big time yeah, and uh, but one of the things I didn't like that he mentioned was like he was basically almost kind of like saying that reformed, like reformed baptists and presbyterians, are those who might hold a cessationist view. He's like, you know, they're basically their church. Churches are lifeless, they don't believe in the power of prayer and kind of just stereotyping them as like, just because they don't believe in this distinct sign, gifts um extending.

Cory Reckner: 36:59

They're kind of dead, yeah, yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 37:01

It's like that's not the same thing as saying that the Holy Spirit doesn't work at all, that the Holy Spirit doesn't bring a believer to faith in Christ and provide regeneration, justification, sanctification, all of these things. So there was that. And then next I wanted to kind of mention, um, the NT right thing. I thought it was funny that when I was watching the video it's the I think thought it was really funny that you messaged me back after you sent me a video to watch it.

Cory Reckner: 37:26

I'm like hey, watch this. I just watched it. Yeah, that's too funny.

Zechariah Eshack: 37:30

I one of the things that he had said was um, you know, a woman prayed with him that he would have the ability to speak in tongues and then magically, the next day he's praying in tongues. And I'm just like that's very convenient and very quick, but I'm like, what purpose does it serve?

Zechariah Eshack: 37:51

It almost seems to me kind of be similar to the idea of stigmata, and I know that's kind of sounds strange, but I think it reminds me of that in such a way that like Sounds strange but I think it reminds me of that in such a way that like, because it is a route that people sometimes go to show that their holiness and Christ likeness to other people, and I think that that's what's happening with the speaking in tongues thing right, Because it's you have achieved this level of holiness that you now have the ability and gift to speak in tongues yeah where I also think, too, that there is a mental thing that happens, where you believe something is going to happen and sometimes it manifests.

Zechariah Eshack: 38:38

And the reason why I say that is because I think some things can be psychosomatic, if I'm using that term correctly Placebo effect, almost yeah, you believe it, so it's going to happen. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, you have this faith that it's going to happen, so it just does.

Zechariah Eshack: 38:54

And so I definitely think that you know BB Warfield in his book Counterfeit Miracles. I think he does a great job at explaining all of this, because I do think it's true, because, as someone who's you know, has OCD, like there was a time where I more frequently went through a phase of like oh, I almost like a hypochondriac, where you think something's wrong with you and say, you know, I think I have an ulcer or I have this or that, and then I would start to feel the symptoms of that, and so I I actually think that those symptoms can be real. Um, and your bot, like the mind body connection I think is very real.

Zechariah Eshack: 39:36

Like I don't think that you're necessarily gonna regrow a limb, but I do think that if you think something's wrong and your body fixates you, it puts all of its energy Um, for example, one of the things that was brought up in the book was that, um, so this woman, uh, she had, her fingers were like, just like tripled or quadrupled in size. Where they were they. It was hard to separate them from each other and her hand was constantly like clenched and she couldn't open her hand like a web web hand.

Cory Reckner: 40:10

Yeah, I've heard that condition before. Yeah, yeah, I don't know if that's what it's called, but yeah, it's like a webbed hand.

Zechariah Eshack: 40:15

So the doctor actually believed that it was all in her head. So what he had done was he put like a I think it was he put a needle in between her, her, uh, uh, one of her fingers and he told her. He said you know, you fixate on this, I don't know. It was like five, 10 minutes and after that five or 10 minutes he was like you could literally see the swelling dissolve and just disappear and her hand went back to normal because it it tricked her mind from focusing on what she thought was a problem to something else, and so it was like that distraction. I you know like I thought that that was really really cool to think about.

Cory Reckner: 40:51

And it led to a physical effect happening to you.

Zechariah Eshack: 40:53

Yeah.

Cory Reckner: 40:53

Yeah, which almost seems miraculous, right. Yeah. When you think it into existence. Yeah, it can happen, you know, yep, yeah, yeah, that's funny. Yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 41:03

Um, what I? Another thing that I thought was interesting in the book was they had something back back in the day it was called like. I think they were called like faith houses or faith healing houses, where they would actually take people who were sick and they were kind of almost like prayer houses, but like these type of people, like they didn't really believe in medicine at all, it was more about like you go there for prayer and then you just have to have faith and God will heal you.

Cory Reckner: 41:30

That's kind of like Christian science. Christian scientists, for the majority, don't believe in like modern medicine. Yeah. They believe everything needs to be faith, healing and same thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 41:41

It was on his chapter on faith healing and I thought it was kind of funny that he brought up a really good point. He said that a lot of times these faith healers they don't have faith in modern medicine but they have faith in the doctors to be good diagnosticians. And he said that's another problem with these supposed miracles. He said that a lot of times the doctors are just poor diagnosticians, so where they may categorize something that you were diagnosed with X, Y or Z, but that may not be the case, it may not be accurate. So when you get better, it's like a miracle.

Cory Reckner: 42:19

It's like a miracle, right. Yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 42:22

I think it's funny because I previously have've gone to when my OCD symptoms were bad. I had gone to two different counselors and one of them said I didn't have OCD. The other one did say I have OCD, not his friend, my buddy's mom. I think it's funny. She actually is like a trained psychologist and that's what her degree is in, trained psychologist. And um, that's what her degree is in. In an order. I don't know if she was working on her dissertation, but, um, she was at that level. In order for her to get her, I don't know if it was maybe her doctorate or whatever it was, but she basically had to have a guinea pig. And, um, she needed someone to basically, you know, ask a bunch of series of questions and, uh, she was supposed to provide some sort of like diagnosis or just you know her observances. And so I remember I actually had to meet with her like three times.

Zechariah Eshack: 43:11

I was like I'll, I'll be your guinea pig, it's fine you know I'm like just to help her out, you know, and um uh, but what I thought was funny, that she was like no, she's like you don't. She's like I don't think you have OCD, I think it's that you have specific phobias and it manifests as OCD symptoms.

Zechariah Eshack: 43:28

So here you have three different counselor types providing three different, different diagnosis, right? So I think that that and I think that she was probably the most right out of all of them. Yeah, but like, I do think it's kind of funny, though, right, because it's like three different people, three different diagnosis. So I think that bb warfield's right.

Cory Reckner: 43:50

There's a lot of poor diagnosticians out there there really are, yeah, and especially when it comes to, like you said, the sign gifts. I mean, the Bible says where there are two or three witnesses, a testimony can be valid, right, yeah, but it doesn't say if there are two or three bad witnesses the testimony would be invalid.

Cory Reckner: 44:12

Right, right, yeah, but that happens all the time. Like we, I've had situations where maybe I'd be in a group of people and everybody in that group is testifying to something, and I found out later it was completely incorrect, you know. Yeah. And I think that that happens all the time with these different circles, branches of Christianity, you know. Yeah. Especially with assigned gifts, and I do think you had mentioned this earlier because you'd mentioned NT Wright too, right? And I was going to ask you did you hear why he said that that happened though?

Zechariah Eshack: 44:45

No, okay, I mean, I'm sure I did, but I don't remember all the video. No, it's okay, let me know.

Cory Reckner: 44:50

He was saying the reason that that was like relevant to him, you know, eventually speaking in tongues was because he was entering, I think he said he was going back to Oxford to get his PhD or whatever, and he was really nervous. He was really nervous about um, entering into like ministry in general and to advise all these people who would come to him with all these questions and problems, and he's like I just don't know if I can handle that and if I'm I'm equipped well enough to do that. And so the way he kind of put it was then this woman, you know, said she spoke the gift of tongues into existence for him. Had God do that for him. And then he started speaking in tongues. Right, yeah.

Cory Reckner: 45:34

And because of that I do like how he put it, because he said it was more so for the purposes of his like deeper connection with God than it was about being showy to the people he would minister to. Right and I know Paul definitely makes that point in the Corinthian letter Right when he says I'd rather have you know like what'd he say. He's like I speak in tongues, but I'd much rather have prophecy be the main thing rather than tongues, because tongues is more between me and God. It's not necessarily like the tongues that he's referring to, not like necessarily the tongues that are spoken of in the book of Acts, right? Yeah.

Cory Reckner: 46:15

So the way I interpret that is I'm like it's more of like a worship thing and it's a deep prayer thing than it is necessarily like a miraculous thing necessarily. You know what I mean. Maybe we could still label it as somewhat of a miraculous thing, but I would say it's more so a worshipful thing between the believer and God than it is the believer and other believers. You know what I mean.

Zechariah Eshack: 46:41

So do you think that, from your perspective, you think that the speaking in tongues is still legitimate, like it still happens?

Cory Reckner: 46:47

Well, so this is like and I texted you this, so this is always comical. I'm like my stance is kind of confusing on all of this no-transcript um, you know, claiming to say they've done these sign gifts. So that leaves a bad perspective, right. You're like, oh, there's frauds out there saying they're, you know, healing limbs and everything, and maybe they're just con artists, right, but then there are other instances where you might hear of testimonies happening, maybe especially in, like, third world countries, right, and I know that was one of the categories you'd mentioned with the four different kinds of cessationists, where they say, practically speaking, you know, this can happen maybe every once in a while, right, like a divine interventionistic moment from God, but it doesn't mean it's like a normal thing, like all the time. Right, and I haven't experienced enough of the mirror.

Cory Reckner: 48:13

Miraculous side of things, like the sign miraculous side of things, to say that I'm a full on continuationist, right, because I just don't know. I don't want to say God is contained by the box, that I want to put him in. Right, because I think that God is a miraculous God. The fact that if we believe that he created everything alone is pretty ridiculous. It's pretty miraculous the world we live in this little rock, the third rock from the sun, as they call it. The fact that this thing is the way it is and that it's surviving at all is just insane. Uh, compared to all the stuff we know about space and everything. Now, too, it's all miraculous to me. Now, too, it's all miraculous to me. Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

Zechariah Eshack: 48:57

Yeah, no, I was just going to say yeah, I just had a conversation with Katie earlier this morning and I think it boils down to how do you classify a miracle right? Good question, because if I pray for something, you pray for something and you see the hand of God in an answered prayer. The hand of God and answered prayer. In some sense I see that as a miracle, but it's like I do think a distinction. I'm all about the distinctions.

Zechariah Eshack: 49:26

I do think a distinction should be made between the signed gifts and like the normal means of grace. You know that, like the Reformed talk about like the normal means of grace. You know that like the reform talk about like the normal means of grace in the sacraments and like the power of prayer as well.

Cory Reckner: 49:42

As you know studying the scriptures and God speaking through the scriptures to you, to believers, yeah, so if I could comment on that too, because I don't want to confuse you with my stance, like I said, I have a hard time explaining it. I'll put it this way too I love and this is why I commented on it earlier. I love the idea of this office that you mentioned, right? I don't think there's ever going to be another Apostle Paul, nor another Apostle Peter, nor another any of the 12 apostles, right? Right.

Cory Reckner: 50:15

Because that was a very specific time in history that Jesus designated between him and these very specific group of guys.

Zechariah Eshack: 50:24

And there were eyewitnesses to the resurrection.

Cory Reckner: 50:27

There were eyewitnesses to the resurrection. They were the ones tasked with spreading the whole gospel across the world. But, like you said, they were eyewitnesses not only of Jesus's ministry on earth, but after he had resurrected from the dead. Yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 50:40

Which is crazy, right yeah, because even though Paul, I guess, even though he didn't witness the resurrection, but he saw the resurrected Christ right on the road to Damascus.

Cory Reckner: 50:50

Yeah, yeah. And so Paul had a really specific set of things that he was doing on his, you know, during his time on earth. Right, he even said I'm a minister to the Gentiles, right, but he was a devout Jew and raised that way. He was, you know, among the tribe of Benjamin right, a Jew among Jews, right, that was his thing. With the continuation of like tongues, I'll say this about myself, with my stance, I'm not going to say that I believe it's necessarily done, but I don't think it's messy, if that makes any sense. Yeah.

Cory Reckner: 51:29

If it's messy, I don't think it's from God, because I think the Bible even Paul, explicitly states God is a God of order, not of chaos explicitly states God is a God of order, not of chaos, you know? So I don't know, but I want to say I lean more towards. I think tongues probably has continued on in the sense of it's not meant to be a showy thing and it's not meant to be something that doesn't help a believer. You know what I mean. Yeah, if it's just a big old performance and someone's like here, god's giving me a word right now, blah blah, blah, blah. You know I'm like I don't know if I can side with that. You know perspective. I just feel like what's the point?

Zechariah Eshack: 52:03

So do you think that in speaking of tongues, like if a person's going to hold to that view, if speaking in tongues exists today, do you think it's an angelic tongue or you think it's just a foreign tongue, like meaning, like a foreign language?

Cory Reckner: 52:23

If somebody speaks a tongue today.

Zechariah Eshack: 52:25

Yeah, if someone's speaking in tongues, like, let's say, nt Wright was speaking in tongues in his prayer Right right, right, was he speaking a foreign language or was he speaking an angelic tongue?

Cory Reckner: 52:34

That's a good question and I would say the way I could answer that is I think sometimes it's a little bit of both right, because I think that heaven is a little beyond us and there has to be things going on in heaven that we just can't comprehend down here sometimes yeah and I would side with the perspective of.

Cory Reckner: 52:51

I think that there is other languages in, maybe, that we just don't know about. You know that perhaps an angel is helping sometimes a believer indwell in themselves with the power of the Holy Spirit For the sake of worship, right, but not for the sake of, like, you know, being this, like necessarily like special person above and beyond everyone else, cause Paul even says any believer has a spirit. You know, might have more than one spiritual gift, but we all have spiritual gifts and the parts that we consider lesser should be considered in higher regard, right, the parts of the body, you know. So I don't think it should ever be a whole like look at this person, they can speak in tongues thing. I think it's more like, oh, this person communicates with God and they've got a very deep relationship with God going on, you know. Yeah.

Cory Reckner: 53:46

But to answer your question originally, I would say I think sometimes it is a little bit of both. But I do know that God gifts people sometimes to speak in different cultures and, um, you know, ethnicities, languages sometimes too. But what's the point of that? Right, it's not just to like, give them the sweet gifts so they can speak in another language. Um, I think it's. It's very complicated sometimes. I think sometimes God might empower somebody so they're able to start learning a new language for the purposes of whatever to go be a teacher or maybe to spread the gospel or something, um, but I don't know if it's like wham bam, that's it. You know, you got a new spiritual gift. You can go speak in, uh, you know, zwahili. Tomorrow, you know, and you're going to go to Zwahili and start speaking to everybody. I think it's more like it can vary amongst believers, you know.

Zechariah Eshack: 54:35

Yeah, well, I think that there's a difference between um, obviously, IQ has something to do with it, right, like someone's IQ theoretically impact how many languages they can learn and how quickly that they can learn something. So, that would be like a normative, or not a normative, I guess I should say like a? Um natural result of the gifts that God's given them, Not signed gifts, but gifts that God's given them of their ability. You know what I mean. Yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 55:08

Maybe knowledge and wisdom. But I'm trying to think I was going to go back a little bit to Mark Driscoll. Yeah, because one of the things I thought he said and you kind of briefly touched on it a little bit to Mark Driscoll, yeah, because one of the things I thought he said and you kind of briefly touched on it a little bit, was that he doesn't think cessationism makes sense because God's the same yesterday, today and forever. That was one of his claims, right, but I mean he's automatically assuming. I mean I think that he is conflating how God acts in certain in biblical redemptive history. Right, he spoke to us in different ways, right? So I think that that's where I feel like he is making an error in that, because, well, at some point he was speaking to us through prophets, you know in the Old Testament and more commonly in the New Testament, through apostles. So his mode of you know what I'm saying.

Zechariah Eshack: 56:04

Yeah, Like obviously it's slightly it's changed, but that doesn't change the nature and character of God.

Cory Reckner: 56:10

Sure His immutability.

Zechariah Eshack: 56:11

That was just something I wanted to bring up because I had kind of honed in on that. I was like that to me doesn't make sense because, um, I don't know, in noah's day, him flooding the earth. Just because he's not flooding the earth now again, doesn't mean the way he treats us, or you know what I mean. Just because how he's treating us or his actions are different doesn't make it, doesn't, doesn't necessitate that he's different. Sure, and I wanted to get your take on that Dr Michael Brown comment. Yeah, about um. He was saying about, uh, you know, he's had a friend whose wife sick and died and then she came back to life you know real, real resurrection.

Zechariah Eshack: 56:58

Well, what are your thoughts on that?

Cory Reckner: 56:59

Oh, man, see, this is where I I'm not, in a subject matter, expert in this regard. Um, do I think it's possible? I definitely think it's possible. Um, do I think it's always probable? And do I think it's, like the norm, like you said, more normative? I don't know, I don't think so I'll. I'll share something really briefly with you. Yeah.

Cory Reckner: 57:30

I actually had somewhat of a similar experience to that, but it wasn't like that. It wasn't because the way Michaelael brown explains it his friend's wife she had like cancer and she was literally on a deathbed and they they put the tarp over her head and they pretty much considered her dead and he said that people had prayed over her and I think you know his friend had specifically prayed for his wife and prayed that she would come back from the dead right after they declared her dead and it was like what he says like the next day, I think.

Zechariah Eshack: 58:02

No, he says 12 minutes. Oh, 12 minutes, See that to me that's a little hard yeah. Because it's like people have gone unconscious and gone into comas for 12 minutes, and there's times, too, that people whose pulse is so low it's undetectable.

Cory Reckner: 58:28

And I also argue that, if you know, I don't know where she was at the time. I don't know if it was a third world country. I think it was in India. Okay, is India considered a third world country? I don't know. That's a good question. I don't know. They're one of the most populated countries in the whole world, but I don't know if they're considered their world.

Zechariah Eshack: 58:37

Yeah, I'm sure there's parts of it that are yeah, yeah. So that begs the question you know how? What is their healthcare like? You know what I mean. Cause. I mean, that's a, that's an important point to bring up Right Cause it's like if you are truly declaring and you don't have any sort of devices that can detect her pulse or heart rate, all of that, then it's like, well, you know, like you said, maybe in a coma-like state. And then obviously, you know, they just assume she was dead.

Speaker 3: 59:09

She appears dead, yeah, yeah but she might not be dead, yeah.

Cory Reckner: 59:12

And I mean even, you know, not opening up this can of worms too but like near-death experiences, right yeah, you hear about these all the time. You hear about people that have experiences where they literally say they've died and their soul, or whatever they think that was of their own, leaves their body. Right and then they can see things. It's almost like an astral projection, almost, you know. So that's another can of worms. We won't go into that, but I'm saying we will actually.

Zechariah Eshack: 59:37

Oh, we will. That's awesome, perfect segue.

Cory Reckner: 59:40

Perfect. Okay, there we go, um, but yeah, that is something that people have throughout all of time, so they've experienced, and you know that's a tough one too, because we didn't experience it with them. So all we really have to rely on is our own discernment and, like you'd mentioned, maybe smarter, more discerning, you know professional opinions about this, about these things also. Yeah.

Cory Reckner: 1:00:09

Because that does ground us a little bit more and be like, oh, is that actually something that is possible or, you know, whatever it could actually happen? Right, we don't know, we don't know, we don't know, um, because we don't experience that every day ourselves. But I would say, um, this is what I was going to tell you. So I had a little experience like this one time. So, my dad, uh, before he had ended up passing away, um, he had been in and out of the hospital for a few years before he passed, and uh, uh, about six or seven months before he had passed, he was sent to hospice care and he had lung issues. He was a chronic smoker.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:00:47

So, he did. He have lung cancer, is that? Is that what his?

Cory Reckner: 1:00:50

I don't think he ever had lung cancer, but he had like emphysema, he had copd, he had pretty much everything but lung cancer, I think. Yeah, um, but yeah, he had all these conditions and it was causing him to, just, you know, be too medicated and then they eventually, just you know, pretty much pronounced him dead in the hospice care. And I went and visited him one time and he was, you know, out cold and he wasn't able to talk or anything and he was medicated and I just felt like I really I selfishly, I'm like I wish I could get a little bit more time with my dad.

Speaker 3: 1:01:24

Yeah, you know, I don't think that's selfish. I mean, I think that's oh, it's so selfish.

Cory Reckner: 1:01:27

No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, no, it was in the moment. You know I about to pass away, but for me I was like I really want to spend some more time with my dad and I'd like to just talk to him a little bit more about things, cause we had reconnected later on in his life and by the time I was in my mid twenties. We got really close, but I didn't have that growing up.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:01:54

So it was a really nice communal moment with him. Yeah, it's thanks. You got to kind of reconnect with him and you know it was great. Yeah, it was awesome, so anyway.

Cory Reckner: 1:02:02

So he was on his deathbed, literally on his deathbed, and I prayed. I just remember being in the hospital room and I said, God, I really just want to ask you this right now. I I want to ask if you would allow it, if you could give me just a little bit more time with my dad. Sure enough, the next day he bounced back and then he came back to consciousness and he was alive for seven more months after that and I got to spend a lot of good time with him.

Cory Reckner: 1:02:31

Yeah, and I'm not saying I'm this, you know, miracle guy, but at the same time it was a moment where I mean you could have just said, like he was about to die, like you know, miracle guy, but at the same time it was a moment where I mean you could have just said, like he was about to die, like you know the next day or something, I don't know.

Cory Reckner: 1:02:43

Yeah, but he came back, and I don't think I could do that with everybody out there. I don't think I'd go around and pray for people to come back to life. I don't think I have this gift of miracles necessarily. Well, but in the moment I, like I said, it was kind of a selfish thing, but I'm like I really don't want him to die right now. I want him to spend some more time with me, and so I prayed for that and I really do think God honored that prayer and it was awesome because I got to spend more time with him. But that's where I think sometimes with these miracle gifts, it's kind of it's hard to say right, Because, like I said, I don't think I'm a miracle gifted person. I Because, like I said, I don't think I'm a miracle gifted person I've prayed that for other people and it didn't happen. I put my hands on people before and prayed maybe a sickness or disease would leave them. It didn't go away.

Cory Reckner: 1:03:28

So that's why I feel like I'm very conflicted with what I think about that.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:03:36

Go ahead. I hope you don't mind me chiming in Chime in sir that well, go ahead. I just I hope you don't mind me, no chime in, sir, no, I I think from a cessationist standpoint it it doesn't. It doesn't necessarily follow that you don't believe in the power of prayer or that god answers prayers and that god can do the miraculous.

Cory Reckner: 1:03:55

Um wait, say that again, I'm sorry.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:03:56

You said from the cessationist perspective, from the cessationist perspective, from the cessationist perspective, cause they're not arguing that God doesn't answer prayers. They're not saying that. They're not saying that that if you pray for something that God's just not going to answer, you're not going to listen, um, you know, cause, obviously they, they do believe that God is, you know, all powerful and they do believe that he's asked us to pray, you know, pray to him. Yeah. And um we do believe that God um does perform miracles. Right.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:04:29

It, it. The argument is not that God doesn't perform miracles, it's that that the signs that are that were distinct because, like I said, I think that when we pray for something like how you prayed for that, it's totally understandable and obviously you saw and answered prayer in that. And I do believe in the power like a power of prayer.

Cory Reckner: 1:04:51

Yeah, that that can happen, yeah exactly.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:04:54

I think it's just when these distinct signs of like that would be different than you have, a buddy that comes in, puts his hands on him and he's healed of every infirmity that he's ever had. Like to me that there's a distinction to be made there, sure.

Cory Reckner: 1:05:10

Right.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:05:10

Yeah. So like I don't want you to your takeaway from this being like oh, Zach doesn't believe, he doesn't believe in an all-powerful god who's able to operate freely like because obviously he, he can and does. It's just um. So this is a good passage. I thought it was kind of connected. It's second corinthians, chapter 12, verse 12. It says the signs of a true apostle were performed among you with the utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works. Yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:05:46

So it does sound like that there is a distinct I use that word a lot lately signs, wonders and mighty works that they could have to kind of confirm who they are in their ministry and that they were God sent Sure. So you know, I thought that that was important to kind of that is good. Set like a little bit of a backdrop, I guess.

Cory Reckner: 1:06:12

Yeah, and what you're saying is like from your stance on it. Yeah. Like that was designated for a very specific time yeah yeah, and we're not like that's not going to happen again to the same degree. No, like ever again. Yeah, down here, yeah, down here.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:06:29

So like the role of prophet, like I don't think, since jesus now fulfills the role of prophet, priest and king, um, we and king, we don't have any longer need for those offices from where I'm standing, because since Christ has fulfilled all those roles but I know I don't want to keep you too long, but I thought going back to I was looking up something.

Cory Reckner: 1:06:52

Yeah, go ahead.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:06:52

No, no no, it's kind of touching on something you said previously. So if you have something to say that we're currently on, go for it.

Cory Reckner: 1:07:01

No, I mean you brought up a subject that I wanted to reiterate. You had mentioned Hebrews earlier, and in the first chapter of Hebrews the author even says in the past we had prophets and other people pretty much that people would rely on to communicate about God. But now we have Christ right, and so Christ is like the fulfillment of that. Like you said, with prophet, priest and king, he's the ultimate fulfillment. So it's like we'd have to go through him, through the filter of christ, now for anything else you know yeah so I just wanted to touch on that too, because you brought it up and I love that.

Cory Reckner: 1:07:42

That's that actually rocked my world. When I finally started resonating with that, I was like, oh, okay, or absorbing that, I should say, um, because I'm like so, yeah, course, back in like old Testament times, people would rely on prophets. They would rely on, you know, quote unquote, the Jewish evangelists.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:07:58

Yeah, but yeah, they would rely on the prophets. Sometimes they would rely on the priest to fulfill their priestly duties, the Levitical priesthood or the King Right.

Cory Reckner: 1:08:12

Yeah right, yeah, david, you know, but now that we have christ, it's like a different thing altogether. It's like a different covenant, you know, yeah, and that's where I just I think that that was a good point you brought up too, because christ is the fulfillment of all three of those roles yeah so to kind of delegate it out, like delegate christ's fulfillment of those roles to somebody else, is just kind of like you, you know, kind of saying scripture's wrong in my opinion.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:08:34

So yeah yeah, we'll have to kind of um, in another episode, dive deeper into like more of ecclesiology, as in like how the church is supposed to look. Yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:08:43

Sure, it's not really my strong suit because it's like, I know, anglicans, catholics, orthodox, you know um, you know they, uh, presbyterians. There's a lot of different. You know there's some overlap with, like you know, I think, anglicans and Roman Catholics. I mean, they have like a hierarchy where it's like Presbyterians. It's a little bit different structure and I'd like to be able to dive deeper into it and kind of understand it, where they get their understanding of these different offices that are held within the church and where they get it from, you know, scripture. Yeah, that'd be good.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:09:17

I think that would be a good topic. But before we end, though, I kind of wanted to because you had talked about, like obviously you know, dr Michael Brown brought that up that death and what he believed was a quote unquote resurrection and then obviously the you know other, like you said, like where people think that they've have seen hell or heaven and they have like temporarily died and brought back to life. Um, this was I, this was in, um bb warfield's counterfeit miracles, and so in it he brings up dr Michael Brown actually brought up Augustine, and I think he mentioned how Augustine obviously softened his stance and was more of like a kind of a little bit more of a continuationist and believed in miracles later on in his life. So not only Ortland but Dr Michael Brown brought this up and what I thought was interesting about that was because, like I think it was Trent Horn had back when he was a little bit more on the free will bandwagon, and I feel like he's kind of softened his stance on predestination a little bit. I feel like now that he's kind of gotten deeper into it.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:10:32

Um, I'm pretty sure he was talking about how, or he was asked like what his view of predestination was and specifically about Augustine. And he was, like. You know, augustine has some great views but, like, once he got further on in life, you know, he kind of went off the rails and went too far with the predestination thing. You know, as someone who's a Calvinist, obviously I'm very strict Augustinian. So it's like Warfield talks about how the Reformation was nothing other than Augustinianism. There's a strong branch of Augustinianism in it, anyway. So it's like I kind of have the opposite view when it comes to his cessationism, because he actually held stronger cessationist views, like early on and midway through, and then it wasn't until later on in life when, you know he was, you know, believed in more of, like, the miracles that were happening around him, or secondhand miracles they seemed hard to validate, but one of the ones that he had mentioned it's in the city of God.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:11:29

So he recounts this story of Karma of Tulium. It's basically a man who died and then afterwards he was taken to the afterlife but then is sent back. So here's his quote Karma was dead and already laid out, but he returned to life and said that he had been taken I'm sorry and he had been where he was, um, where he saw a great light and he heard a voice and it was not Kerma the shoemaker that was wanted, but it was Kerma the iron worker. Augustine also notes that the man then rose up, told what he had seen and he lived for a long time afterwards. So what's happening there? Basically, some guy named Kerma you know, maybe one of the angels decided it was his time to go, but then got mixed up and be like oh no, we don't want the Kerma the shoemaker, we want Kerma the iron worker.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:12:24

And this same story is repeated in very similar fashion by Gregory the Great and it's supposed to be evidence of, you know, resurrection and a miracle. And then, but it likely has a pagan origin. So Lucian of Samasada this was in the second century, obviously, you know, a couple hundred years before Augustine. He was a second century pagan satirist. He wrote a parallel version of this mistaken resurrection trope, obviously Warfield. What he's basically bringing up is that this repeated story is folklore. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that Augustine or Gregor the Great are saying it with ill intent, like they're knowingly spreading misinformation. I mean they would get the misinformation from facebook if they had posted it online, yeah uh, especially if it was during covid.

Cory Reckner: 1:13:19

Oh, yeah, there we go we all love that.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:13:22

We all love the oh man constant notifications that something's misinformation, according to, but anyway. Um, that just goes to show you the power of a story, and just just because someone believes it to be true, it doesn't make any of them any less of great theologians. But I mean, it just goes to show you that just because they believe it to be true doesn't make it true.

Cory Reckner: 1:13:49

Sure.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:13:50

And that you can have this continuing folklore or myth kind of being told, but people in their minds may believe it actually happened. So that's what I wanted to say about the whole you know miracle thing because, um, I don't know, thought it was relevant it's really good.

Cory Reckner: 1:14:05

it's a good point too, because I feel like not to play devil's advocate here too, but it's almost the same from the opposite point of view also. Right, like cause, I know when I think of what you're explaining and your standpoint on the whole thing, I don't view you as like a naysayer of miracles at all.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:14:25

Yeah, right. Right.

Cory Reckner: 1:14:26

And I think that that could be misinterpreted. I think people could hear, maybe, what you're saying and say, oh, you just don't believe in the power of God, right. But like you had expressed and explained earlier, you're like it's not that I don't believe in the power of God, I just believe that the function and these miraculous happenings were very specific already in history. Yeah. So it doesn't mean that like it has to be like this regular thing all the time. Right.

Cory Reckner: 1:14:51

But people could still say oh, but you're denying the modern power of God, and I don't think that's what you're saying either. What you're saying is you stand from a perspective that God is very organized with how he expresses himself through these miraculous events. Right.

Cory Reckner: 1:15:09

And I have to say that that's exactly how I feel it as well. I I that I agree with that a hundred percent also, um, but I will say this so one thing I've learned about God is, I think, even with miracles, right. I think it's really easy to say more, so to say that God couldn't do something, than to say he could sometimes Right. I think that's just our natural, sinful way of thinking. Yeah.

Cory Reckner: 1:15:33

And that's why the Bible is constantly commending us to have faith, because it's just so easy to not have faith, especially with God, that he will come through and do something powerful, and I don't think either one of us would disagree with that. But I also think it's easy to say that it's always going to happen. Yeah. You know, and we know that that's not true either, because God is very intentional, he's very strategic in how he does things.

Cory Reckner: 1:16:00

The way Jesus fulfilled his life and ministry through how he did things, was very, very fine tuned. And I know in my own life when I've seen God providentially come through and do things that I personally would say were miraculous. Somebody else might not think that right. They might think, no, that's just whatever you know, that's just normal things that happen. Right. Theory of probability, whatever you know, you name it. Tell a skeptic that God came through for you. Let's see what they say, right? So I think it's really easy to dismiss the power of God and then it's also really easy to just over abundantly say it's something that it's not you know. Yeah.

Cory Reckner: 1:16:45

So, yeah, I just wanted to comment on that because I think that that's a really good thing that you said, because it's almost like you're saying, augustine took these kind of like performative stories and said, well, this is how God works too. Yeah, right, or he can do that, but it was more so in the later stages of his life, where he was maybe getting a little little loose with things. Right.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:17:12

Well, I think it was just the overall influence of the culture around him and the belief in miracles. Right. Well, I guess the way I look at it is that I think about all of the problems that come along with continuationism.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:17:32

You know, the false prophecies, the false prophets, the like, even with the faith healing, just the false hope that is given to people in the sense that, like they're not putting their hope in Christ, they're putting their hopes in a faith healer, or a supposed faith healer, that they have this special power and that they are similar to the apostles and had the same signs that they had, and they have the same power and holy spirit of gifted abilities to be able to just at will miraculously heal somebody, and it's like I can't recall how many times I've seen, where you know, someone like Benny Hinn or whoever, where it's just kind of like years down the road you hear that they were.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:18:18

It felt like pressure to feel like that they to claim that they were healed or that they were paid, or you know what I mean, like you just hear a lot of that type of stuff happening a lot. Yeah. And it's just think about all the damage that some of the continuationist movement has brought about. Yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:18:35

But it's just the thought I want our listeners to think about. It's like to enter, at least entertain this view and be like well, what if it is this way? What if the particular sign gifts have ceased? Not that we don't have a God that does miracles, not that he can't perform miracles, but that these specific offices of like prophet and apostle, where they had special sign gifts to confirm their role and that they were God sent, is no longer a thing. So that's kind of. I know we're kind of running out of running out of time here.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:19:09

But, was there anything else you wanted to say before we kind of wrap up or um.

Cory Reckner: 1:19:14

So unfortunately I don't think we got to tap into the prophecy.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:19:19

Um, you're too much yeah you're in luck because um next season oh yeah, I, I'm talking profits well, I'm leaning pretty heavy that it's gonna be unpacking. I think it's called hypoglossia, which it's, speaking in tongues we're going to be talking about. Um, I wanted to be, I wanted to talk about stigmata, I wanted to talk about faith healing. So charismatic. Um. So it's going to be heavily influenced by this counterfeit miracles book I read by BB Warfield. I feel like that's the direction I want to go. Yeah, nice.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:19:53

Um, so we'll definitely get time to uh I'll have you back on and uh have you pick a couple episodes that you think are ones you would like to do.

Cory Reckner: 1:20:00

Okay, so to be continued. Yep, yeah, yeah. This is just the opener. Yeah, nice yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:20:06

So but yeah, thanks, man, I really appreciate you coming on. Yeah, really appreciate the insight. Even though we have slightly different views, I think it was good to kind of talk about it and see where each other's coming from.

Cory Reckner: 1:20:16

Yeah, we're going to fight after this is over.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:20:17

We're going to fist fight. You'll probably win, since you're a kickboxer.

Cory Reckner: 1:20:21

That's okay, I'll give you the upper hand a little bit. I'll let you get a couple shots in there.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:20:33

Thanks again, and I want to thank our listeners for tuning in and if you would like more additional information, I have transcripts, frequently asked questions and just a lot of other information on our website, as well as resources. It's going to be at therestlesstheologiancom and we also have merch t-shirts nothing crazy, but just a few things out there. Just wanted to bring that up and check it out and we'll see you next time. Thanks, Cory.

Cory Reckner: 1:20:56

Yeah, you got it, sir.

Scripture:

• Hebrews 2:3–4 — sign gifts confirming the apostolic message

• Ephesians 2:20 — apostles and prophets as the foundation

• 2 Corinthians 12:12 — marks of a true apostle with signs and wonders

• 1 Corinthians 13:8–13 — prophecy and tongues will cease

• 1 Corinthians 14:1–33 — order in worship and the role of tongues

• 2 Timothy 3:16–17 — sufficiency of Scripture

• Romans 9:6–8 — not all physical Israel is spiritual Israel

• Revelation 22:18–19 — warning about adding to prophecy

• Isaiah 28:11 (referenced in 1 Cor. 14:21) — tongues as a sign to unbelievers

Creeds & Confessions:

• Westminster Confession of Faith 1.1, 1.6 — Scripture as the final authority

• Second London Baptist Confession 1.1 — the cessation of new revelation

• Apostles’ Creed — Christ as prophet, priest, and king

Early Church Fathers:

• John Chrysostom – believed miraculous gifts were for the early church

• Augustine – initially open to miracles, later leaned toward cessation

• Irenaeus – sign gifts tied to apostolic authority

• Tertullian – associated charismatic gifts with the Montanists

• Origen – emphasized spiritual over physical gifts

Theological Works & Themes:

• Counterfeit Miracles – B.B. Warfield

• Perspectives on Pentecost – Richard Gaffin Jr.

• Strange Fire – John MacArthur

• Michael Heiser – Pentecost as reversal of Babel

• Vern Poythress – analogy of modern works of the Spirit within cessationism

• Gavin Ortlund – critique of cessationist documentary “clusters”

• Continuationism vs. Cessationism – classification of views (classical, consistent, pragmatic, hardline)

• Role of sign gifts in redemptive history – Moses, Elijah/Elisha, Jesus/apostles clusters

• Cessationist (2023) documentary – Les Lanphere

1. Do cessationists deny that God performs miracles today?

   No. Cessationists affirm God’s sovereignty and ability to intervene miraculously but argue that sign gifts tied to apostolic office have ceased.

2. What’s the difference between a miracle and a sign gift?

   Miracles may still happen in response to prayer or providence. Sign gifts (e.g., tongues, prophecy, healing) were unique, authoritative works performed by apostles to validate their divine commission.

3. What are the main types of cessationism?

   • Classical: Gifts ceased with apostles

   • Consistent: Ceased with apostolic office and closing of the canon

     Pragmatic/Concentric: Rare signs may occur in unreached regions

   • Hardline: Total denial of post-apostolic miraculous claims

4. What’s the biblical purpose of tongues?

   Tongues served as a sign of judgment to unbelieving Jews (Isaiah 28:11; 1 Cor. 14:21) and symbolized inclusion of Gentiles at Pentecost—reversing the division at Babel.

5. How do continuationists err according to cessationists?

   Cessationists argue continuationists often conflate:

   • Prayer-healing with apostolic healing Encouragement with prophecy

   • Personal conviction with authoritative revelation

6. Is prophecy still active today?

   From a cessationist view, prophecy as new divine revelation has ceased with the closing of the canon. Scripture is now the sole authority (2 Tim. 3:16–17).

7. Does this mean the church lacks power today?

   Not at all. The Holy Spirit still regenerates, sanctifies, empowers, and answers prayer, but through ordinary means rather than miraculous signs.

• B.B. Warfield, Counterfeit Miracles

• Richard B. Gaffin Jr., Perspectives on Pentecost

• John MacArthur, Strange Fire

• Sinclair Ferguson, The Holy Spirit

• Thomas Schreiner, Spiritual Gifts: What They Are and Why They Matter

• Vern Poythress, "Modern Spiritual Gifts as Analogous to Apostolic Gifts: Affirming Extraordinary Works of the Spirit Within Cessationist Theology" (JETS 39/1, 1996)

• YouTube: Gavin Ortlund's critique of Cessationist documentary

• The Cessationist documentary by Les Lanphere

• Historic creeds and confessions: Westminster Confession of Faith, 1.1 & 1.6