Christ's Descent into Hell

Zechariah Eshack: 0:00

Welcome to the Restless Theologian podcast, where we focus on having insightful conversations in biblical history and theology. I'm your host, Zechariah Eshack, for our fifth episode of season three. We are going to be discussing a line that's in the Apostles' Creed. He was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell On the third day. He rose again from the dead. We're going to be exploring what happened exactly after Christ died and what was going on between Good Friday and Easter Sunday. And in order to unpack this topic with me, I have my wife on today to kind of go through this. How you doing, Kathryn,

Kathryn Eshack: 0:49

Good. How are you

Zechariah Eshack: 0:51

Good

Kathryn Eshack: 0:52

It's been a while.

Zechariah Eshack: 0:53

Yeah, it has been a while I haven't had you on yet this season.

Kathryn Eshack: 0:56

No, yeah, we've been pretty busy. Yeah, just wedding plans and all that. But yeah, it's good to be back.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:04

Yeah, glad to have you back. I always enjoy our conversations together.

Kathryn Eshack: 1:08

Me too.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:08

What we're going to look at today just to kind of cover a little bit of ground. We're going to be looking at what the Bible says about the descent, what the church fathers and what some of the reformers' views. We're going to briefly touch on that and then we're going to look at the theories about the atonement that are kind of connected to the descent of Christ. So there's actually three different main ideas and there's a little bit of sub-level ideas surrounding where Jesus went and what he did after he died. Now the three different main views from a high level are going to be the paradise. Only that Jesus. He went to heaven. That's where his soul, that's where his spirit was taken, and so Jesus went immediately to paradise with the thief on the cross. Because, as we know in Luke 23, 43, the thief on the cross does ask Christ to remember him and his kingdom and Jesus responds with you know, today, you will be with me in paradise.

Zechariah Eshack: 2:16

The second view is that when Christ died, he went to Abraham's bosom, which is the realm of the righteous dead, which is a part of Hades. So Jesus descended to the righteous and Hades. Now, hades is a Greek term and it means like the realm of the dead, and it is pretty much the equivalent of what the Hebrews use, the term for Sheol. So Sheol and Hades for the most part seem pretty interchangeable. It's just obviously Hades is a Greek term. So in this understanding that Abraham's bosom, there's also this idea that Hades itself has two sections, one for the righteous and one for the wicked and one for the wicked. And this view also connects with Matthew, chapter 27, verses 52 to 53, which describes saints rising and appearing to many after Christ's resurrection, which is potentially a sign of their liberation and glorification.

Zechariah Eshack: 3:21

And the other view, the third and last view, is going to be that jesus, when he descended, he descended to tartarus and what he was doing there was proclaiming judgment over rebellious angels from noah's day. And this is kind of discussed or kind of like the term for it would be christus victor and it has a lot to do with Christ triumphing over evil and demonic powers. So, after going through all that, we're going to unpack it. And where would you like to start with, Kathryn? Do you want to go over the key scripture passages or you want to go immediately to the understandings of what those three terms mean hades, gehenna and tartarus?

Kathryn Eshack: 4:08

um either way you want to?

Zechariah Eshack: 4:10

okay, let's start there. Yeah, and then maybe we'll work our way back.

Kathryn Eshack: 4:13

Yeah, I will say like just going back to when you're talking about the creed and just I, it is uh pretty amazing how, like up, we would say the creed all the time. Like I grew up Catholic, so we would say the creed at every mass. And you know, even when I was younger and that would come up where he descended into hell, I did not know what that meant, like, and I you know it wasn't until I got older and became an adult and started kind of looking more into it, like what does that mean exactly? But it is interesting to go through these different views that we kind of were talking about last night. So yeah, we can always start with, like, the scripture readings if you want.

Zechariah Eshack: 5:01

Okay, we'll start there then Okay, we'll start there then Okay, okay. So if you wouldn't mind reading for me 1 Peter 3, verses 18 through 20.

Kathryn Eshack: 5:10

Okay, For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison because they formerly did not obey. When God's patience waited, in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons were brought safely through water, and then can you also read for us Ephesians 4, and this is going to be verses 8 through 10.

Zechariah Eshack: 5:48

Okay, great.

Kathryn Eshack: 5:49

Thank you.

Zechariah Eshack: 6:15

So, in Ephesians 4, from what I looked up for the Greek term, which I'm not even going to try to pronounce, but it literally translates that he led captivity, captive, and what this is is a poetic idiom and it emphasizes complete victory. So essentially, what it's saying is Christ himself captures the captors. Now, what is meant by the captors could be the death, demons or spiritual powers, and we're going to take a closer look at that view because that matches, um, like I said, the third concept of where christ went when he died, and that would have been tartarus. So, and this is acts, chapter 2, verses 27, it says for you will not abandon my soul to Hades or let your Holy one see corruption. Now, this is this hearkens back to David. In the Psalms, david is the original speaker, and then, in this context, in Acts, peter is the one who is basically rephrasing it, not rephrasing it, but I should say say, um, hearkening back to it. So when he says for you will not abandon my soul or let your holy one see corruption, so whose soul? And who's the holy one? It would be, from my understanding, it's christ in his soul and he is the holy one being described that's not going to see corruption.

Zechariah Eshack: 7:42

And and then in Acts, same chapter, but verse 31,. It says he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. So the reason why I brought this up was because I wanted to just kind of think about what has meant that Christ was not abandoned to Hades. There's a couple of different ways we can look at this. I think is that maybe Christ did descend into Hades, meaning the realm of the dead, and we'll kind of unpack what that means a little bit in a little bit. So it could mean that he went there, but he wasn't abandoned there, he didn't remain there. Or it could potentially mean that he never went there. You know, he was not abandoned to Hades, he did not have to go there. This would closely align with the I believe it was the first view that we had brought up that he entered into paradise only.

Kathryn Eshack: 8:42

Yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 8:42

So he would not have gone to Hades.

Kathryn Eshack: 8:44

I'm guessing that would be more of like the reformed view, correct?

Zechariah Eshack: 8:49

That's correct.

Kathryn Eshack: 8:49

If um cause I know we're going to talk about a little bit later, cause that makes sense when they um, since they believe it to be like the suffering of Christ on the cross. Correct, yeah, After you know his last breath on the cross, he would have gone straight to heaven.

Zechariah Eshack: 9:05

Yeah. So when it talks about, for example, the Heidelberg Catechism briefly brings up in one of its answers that what is meant by in the Apostles Creed that he descended into hell, was that it's basically meaning the torment of his, meaning the torment of of his, basically the torment that he went through with his um crucifixion and the pain and anguish that he went through, so basically going to the depths of depths of hell, essentially in his body. And this goes right into what we were talking about. Next verse was um Luke 23, 43, when Jesus responds to the thief on the cross truly, I say to you today you will be with me in paradise. And then one last biblical passage we want to bring up is Revelation, chapter 1, 17 through 18. And it says when I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead, but he, meaning Christ, laid his right hand on me saying fear not, I am the first and the.

Zechariah Eshack: 10:09

So there's a distinction that is clearly being made between death and Hades, distinction that is clearly being made between death and Hades, and one is representing that Jesus has. Well, jesus has authority over both death and Hades. So he has authority over the state of death and over the realm of the dead. So Hades is basically the intermediate realm of the dead. Obviously, as I mentioned before, that's equivalent to Sheol and the Hebrew concept, and it is a temporary place and it's not necessarily a place of torment. So it's not a place of punishment or anything like that, it's just a holding place for the dead before the final judgment. So it's also associated with the grave or the underworld and not to be confused with the final judgment. And so this is where I wanted to kind of dive into subcategories under Hades, so one of them being that it's believed that Abraham's bosom is a part of Hades and it's a place of comfort and not punishment. And I've heard some people say that it is heaven, which I could see that being a plausible argument. Have you ever heard that, mm-mm?

Kathryn Eshack: 11:33

Yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 11:35

No, that when someone's taken up to Abraham's side or Abraham's bosom, it is meaning that they're being taken up to heaven. Okay.

Zechariah Eshack: 11:44

Another category would be Tartarus. Now, Tartarus, from my understanding, is that it's actually a level in Hades, but the lowest level, Tartarus, is mentioned only in one place in the New Testament, which is 2 Peter 2, verses 4. Now, Tartarus is kind of a unique term. It's a Greek term and it's where God holds the rebellious angels in chains until judgment day. And it's not to be confused with just Hades in general, because from what I've looked up, it does sound like it's maybe a level in Hades, but it's also not to be confused with hell, which is Gehenna. So, and there's a couple passages that you know, if you wouldn't mind reading them for me both. Second, let's start with second Peter, chapter two, verses four.

Kathryn Eshack: 12:40

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment?

Zechariah Eshack: 12:50

Okay, and what translation do you have up?

Kathryn Eshack: 12:52

That's ESV.

Zechariah Eshack: 12:54

ESV. Yeah, esv is a common one I use too. So I'm glad you read from the ESV, because the translation I put in my notes are from the Lexham English Bible, because the translation I put in my notes are from the Lexham English Bible and I guess the actual Greek term is. So I'll just read you what the Lexham version says For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but held them captive in Tartarus with chains of darkness and handed them over to be kept for judgment and your version says hell. I browsed through a lot of different English translations and the majority of them do say hell, but when I looked it up, the more accurate translation is Tartarus and it probably shouldn't have been translated to be hell. Um, which is kind of interesting because you kind of noticed. Have you noticed that the same thing happens with Hades? Yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 13:41

Sometimes it's it's hell and Hades are used interchangeably. Yeah. And I think from I don't know from my train of thought, like I found that really confusing, especially growing up, because I thought they were the same thing, but it sounds like Hades and hell are not.

Kathryn Eshack: 13:57

Yeah, well, it makes sense. In regards to being in the apostles creed then too, like what did they really mean by hell?

Zechariah Eshack: 14:03

You know, yeah, so yeah, and then um, um, can you read the book of jude, chapter one, verse six, for me yes, and I'll read the.

Kathryn Eshack: 14:11

Do you want me to read the lexham sure version? Okay, I'm sorry. Um, in the angels who did not keep to their own domain but deserted their proper dwelling place, he has kept in eternal bonds under deep gloom for the judgment of the great day.

Zechariah Eshack: 14:26

Okay, next we'll jump to Gehenna and then, after we kind of talk about Gehenna, then we're going to kind of unpack these passages. So Gehenna the word basically is the. It's the final punishment place for the wicked and it is rooted in the Valley of Hinnom, which is a real location outside of Jerusalem, which was associated with idolatry and basically burning trash. So Gehenna symbolizes God's final judgment and it is the equivalent of hell. For what I would guess is that anytime the word Gehenna is used it's going to be translated hell into English, because I believe there are one and the same.

Zechariah Eshack: 15:13

But I think the issue is with some of the New Testament translations both Tartarus and Hades are also translated hell.

Zechariah Eshack: 15:22

So it kind of gives us a little bit more of a misunderstood view of a lot of other topics, I think, because I see how it kind of blurred my view in some of these different passages, because if it's not really hell, then that kind of changes the overall meaning of the text, right? So, going back to 2 Peter, 2, verse 4, about that, god did not spare the angels who sinned. This is supposedly believed to be. The angels who sinned are the fallen angels that are referenced in Genesis 6, the ones that basically intermingled with human women, and then, obviously, in Jude 1, 6, the angels that did not keep their own domain but desired their own proper dwelling place. God kept them in eternal bonds. So there's this idea that they've been put into Tartarus, which is a place that's like the lowest abyss of Hades, and that they're kept in chains there. Right, is that what you are're kept in chains there? Right? Is that what you are taking from it? Yeah, okay.

Kathryn Eshack: 16:30

Yeah, it almost makes me wonder. So the judgment day, so do you? Do you think that would be when he descended into hell? That was their judgment day, or is it still going to be later on? For that judgment day. Because even if he here's, just what I'm thinking.

Zechariah Eshack: 16:57

Here's just what I'm thinking right now. I just thought of this right now.

Kathryn Eshack: 16:59

So say he descended to Hades and Tartarus, is that how you say it, tartarus?

Zechariah Eshack: 17:08

Well, yeah, it would make sense that if he descended into Hades and Tartarus, Is a part of Hades. It is essentially or I should say potentially a part of Hades, but the lowest part yeah. And not the same as Abraham's bosom. So I mean, but obviously it's the same place.

Kathryn Eshack: 17:27

It makes me think that Jesus descended there to proclaim the good news, proclaim his gospel liberating the souls in Hades that are in Abraham's bosom. So all those, uh, the um people of the old Testament who are in Abraham's bosom, but then also declaring judgment on the angels and Tartarus. But yeah, it is really interesting to think about those two ideas possibly being together.

Zechariah Eshack: 18:00

Yeah, cause I didn't think that they were um, I didn't think that they were mutually exclusive. You know, I didn't think that they were mutually exclusive. I didn't think that the idea that he went and descended into Abraham's bosom, a part of Hades, and I think that this kind of closely is kind of tied with let me see if I can find it in my notes closely is kind of tied with, um, let me see if I can find it in my notes. Um, yeah, matthew, chapter 27, verses uh, 52, 52 versus 53. Let me get that, see if I can get that pulled up. It says the tombs also were opened and many bodies of the saints who had had fallen asleep were raised and coming out of the tombs. After his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Now I feel like anytime that that's read in a lot of churches or just I feel like it's glossed over, um, because to me that sounds like a resurrection, right, like it's glossed over because to me that sounds like a resurrection, right?

Zechariah Eshack: 19:02

Yeah, so they're coming out of their tombs at the same time he is coming out of his tomb, or shortly thereafter.

Kathryn Eshack: 19:09

Is it or I thought it was when the curtain of the temple is torn in two. So wouldn't that be right after his crucifixion, right after he died?

Zechariah Eshack: 19:17

That's what I thought, but in verse 53, it says and coming out of the tombs. After his resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Kathryn Eshack: 19:27

Oh yeah, I didn't catch that. Yeah, so there's this idea, so he went to liberate those souls like he went to deliver them out. Yeah, I guess the question would be because so Hades is a?

Zechariah Eshack: 19:42

place for the soul, right, and not the body, correct. So if people are coming out of the grave and it does use the term body, which I found like an interesting, you know note, because, let's see, it says and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. So they're raised, there's a resurrection, and I feel like that's not something that's ever really brought up. I never hear anyone talk about it.

Zechariah Eshack: 20:04

And so I thought that that was interesting. So what this could be is maybe a first resurrection. I think could be correlated to the book of Revelation where you know how there's like 12,000, or is it 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel that are saved, so that would be the 144,000. So I think when we read the book of Revelation it's often those people who are premillennialists will see everything that happens in Revelation being in the future. But obviously, as we talked about last, night.

Kathryn Eshack: 20:42

So you think possibly the 144,000 are the people of the Old Testament that were resurrected when Christ was resurrected. Yes, that's interesting yeah, yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 20:51

I've never heard anyone bring that up and maybe I'm grasping at straws here.

Kathryn Eshack: 20:54

Wow. But isn't that kind of an interesting thought though.

Zechariah Eshack: 20:58

I mean I just don't understand how else we can explain this passage. I mean it doesn't use the term 144,000, but it does talk about in the book of Revelation. Because if we look at the language which John uses in Revelation, some of the stuff I think could have already come to pass, some of the stuff is going to happen soon because he uses the term these things will soon take place. So maybe not like, let's go to to, uh, you brought it up before but um, the dragon, uh, waging war on the woman, and the woman actually is supposed to represent Israel.

Zechariah Eshack: 21:49

Now I think that who's to say that the, the waging of war on the woman, didn't happen right away, which was the um, which was the persecution and execution of the saints in the early days of the church. So you know, like the timeline's important here. So I don't want to get too sloppy with the timeline, but it is a potential that I could see Because, like I said, I think that not everything that John talks about is necessarily always in the future. It could maybe be a little bit, you know, past, present and future maybe.

Kathryn Eshack: 22:26

Mm-hmm.

Zechariah Eshack: 22:27

Okay, so moving on from that, yeah, so what you had talked about earlier and I'm trying to think of what it was, it sounded similar to what. When you quoted 1 Peter 3, verses 18 through 20, it made me think of that passage and I'll just repeat it here again. It says in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison because they formally did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is eight, persons were brought safely through the water. So I want to kind of fixate a little bit here on and proclaim to the spirits in prison because you had made a comment about when Christ goes to Hades that he's either preaching the gospel, which that's a view that's held, or it's proclamation. So it's not necessarily preaching the gospel like trying to convince them, but it's maybe like a declaration statement. Yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 23:39

Could you see that? Mm-hmm. So it looks like the Greek word used for proclamation is chariso, which typically means to announce or to herald. It doesn't necessarily necessitate that it means to evangelize. So I guess, what are we to make of this? What kind of proclamation is he making? It could be a declaration of his victory, or it could be his declaration of victory to the righteous that are in Abraham's bosom, or it could also be a declaration or I'm sorry, a judgment being made on the wicked the wicked spirits.

Kathryn Eshack: 24:22

So what is your take on it All the?

Zechariah Eshack: 24:27

above, you know, could potentially be both. Yeah, he descended in the Hades and he proclaimed victory over the death and Satan and his enemies. And it also could be a proclamation of judgment to the fallen angels that are in Tartarus, because, as we know, the proclamation if we take the view that the proclamation is being made to the fallen angels, we know that that proclamation isn't the gospel being preached and trying to convince them to repent. Because not only the book of Enoch aside, that says there's no repentance for the fallen angels, that God's not going to offer that to them, the New Testament, actually, you know, apocryphal books aside note that there's no salvation for the fallen angels yeah.

Kathryn Eshack: 25:29

It almost makes me wonder, and you can cut this part out if you want to Like. This is the start of the heavenly kingdom, with his resurrection and him bringing the saints to heaven with him, and then also declaring that those fallen angels be judged and sent to hell, so no longer being in that Tartarus state but being in hell, so no longer being in that Tartarus state, but being in hell. So he's establishing both heaven and hell when it comes to those who were on the earth at one point before his death and resurrection.

Zechariah Eshack: 26:16

Say that last part again.

Kathryn Eshack: 26:19

Obviously. I know he created heaven and earth. It's almost like he's establishing, he's starting to establish, the souls that are going to be in heaven with him when he's resurrected. Yeah, so those who are in Abraham's bosom from the Old Testament, so those who are in Abraham's bosom from the Old Testament, and then also declaring that the fallen angels shall be sent to hell and no longer in that Tartarus state.

Zechariah Eshack: 26:51

I don't know. Just a thought. Yeah, the timeline is a little tricky here because I could see that I could see that he's pronouncing judgment on them. Timeline's a little tricky here because I could see that I could see that he's pronouncing judgment on them and then so he's pronouncing judgment on them and then essentially is sending them to hell.

Kathryn Eshack: 27:09

I mean that also explains he has the keys to death and Hades. You know.

Zechariah Eshack: 27:14

Yeah, yeah, because if Tartarus is a part of Hades, obviously he has the key to that. Yeah, so it could be him potentially unlocking it and sending them to where their final destination would be. So Jude 1, verse 6, near the end of the passage, it says he has kept them in eternal bonds under deep gloom for the judgment of the great day. So that great day could be the final judgment. So I think more. I would think that they could be judged along with humanity on the last day, or they could be judged right away when he you know, if he descends into Hades, because obviously there's some something happening here right, like people are rising out of their graves and so so they're no longer held in that state. So they're no longer held in that state, and I'd be really curious to know if all of Hades is under the rule or dominion of the devil or if it's just the part of, maybe, tartarus. I don't know.

Kathryn Eshack: 28:34

Maybe, maybe it was until Christ died.

Zechariah Eshack: 28:38

That's what I mean, yeah.

Kathryn Eshack: 28:40

And then he claimed victory, yeah yeah I can see how in first peter too, like we didn't really talk about this too much, but the um parallel this is what we heard last night when we watched that video when and saint aug Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas agree with this, but like the parallel between like the flood and Noah's family being rescued on the ark and being saved and that correlation with our baptism, just about how we're united with Christ's death and his resurrection, I can see why that thought is also Advocated for how we're united with Christ's death and his resurrection.

Kathryn Eshack: 29:24

I can see why that thought is also Advocated for yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 29:26

Well, yeah, there are kind of some correlations being made there, because I believe it's the Olivet Discourse Jesus is mentioning, you know, so as in the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man. So I mean you have that being stated, and then also too, in Matthew chapter 16, because I think the Olivet Discourse is Matthew 18. Matthew, chapter 16, when Jesus is speaking to you know he's talking to the disciples, and then Peter obviously is the one who answers. First, about who do people say that I am? Peter responds with you know, you are the Christ, the son of the living God.

Zechariah Eshack: 30:05

And then Jesus makes this statement you know, blessed are you, simon Barjona, for flesh and blood hasn't revealed this to you, but my father in heaven. And then you know he makes a note that the gates of Hades will not conquer the church. You know, as me and Corey kind of discussed in another, one of our episodes is that the Gentile world at that time they believed where Christ was at, like the Mount Hermon area, that they believed that that was a gateway to the underworld. So it's kind of interesting to see all the correlations there. Yeah, to the underworld.

Zechariah Eshack: 30:40

So it's kind of interesting to see all the correlations there, there's not a lot of unity of thought as into what's the correct view if that makes sense where I feel like a lot of different theologians throughout history, whether it's early church fathers or reformers, seem to be a little bit more I don't want to say all over the place, but a little bit more of like have their own interpretations of this, yeah, like this could be a possibility of what it means.

Zechariah Eshack: 31:04

Yeah, so Irenaeus thought that when Jesus died that he preached to the righteous dead. Tertullian also affirmed this that there's a literal descent into hell. His descent into hell, like his death, burial, burial resurrection, and his descent into hell or Hades, like those views are all kind of connected to the doctrine of the atonement. Now, we're not going to go too deep down that path of the atonement, but I figured we would briefly touch on it here. But it is connected, right, Because it's like what was the purpose of what he was doing when he died? Is it connected to his atoning work on the cross, or like, or his mission for why he came? Yeah right.

Zechariah Eshack: 31:48

So origin, for example, he believed into accepting Jesus as a ransom. And then Gregory of Nysa he expanded upon Origen's view that Christ basically tricked Satan. And that's the thing it's like. How did he trick Satan? Do you think that the devil knew that Jesus was divine? Or do you think that he just thought that God became incarnate? And because there's a whole concept that he emptied himself, right, the concept of kenosis? Like he was made lower than the angels. Jesus emptied himself.

Kathryn Eshack: 32:35

Yeah, I mean, maybe in a way I mean I don't necessarily agree with that like how he tricked Satan, but maybe in a way Satan did think that he could like defeat Jesus. You know, maybe that was his like thought of him being here on earth, like, oh, he's weakened, I'm going to get him, you know.

Zechariah Eshack: 32:55

Yeah.

Kathryn Eshack: 32:56

But yeah, I don't know, like did he know that he was divine, even though he lowered himself? Maybe he thought he didn't bring his divinity with him? I don't know.

Zechariah Eshack: 33:06

Yeah, like there's a lot of from my end. There's a lot of interesting little pieces, parts to when Christ and his ministry is going around, pieces parts to when Christ and his ministry is going around.

Zechariah Eshack: 33:24

Like the demons recognize them, right, because you know, like the Gadarene demoniac basically says what do we have to do with you, jesus, son of God? Have you come to torment us before the time? And so it's like they recognized him as the son of God, right, and so it's like they they recognized him as the son of god, right? And but like there does seem to be some mystery um around why christ did some of the things that he did when it came to he would warn the demons, basically, to not declare who he was yeah and then he would even warn people, he would heal, and then he would make a statement of like you know, don't tell people who I am, unless something worse will fall upon you.

Zechariah Eshack: 34:05

You know, if you do something worse will fall upon you. Yeah. Like why the secret? You know what I mean.

Kathryn Eshack: 34:12

Well, and I think we're going to get into that later right, in regards to why he, what are the possibility or what are the reasons for why he did that, here's some possible reasons, given when I looked it up.

Zechariah Eshack: 34:26

So it could be a timing thing because his hour had not yet come. It could be to avoid any sort of confrontation with the authorities before he has to be betrayed in the garden of Gethsemane by Judas. You know, maybe it was a little bit of that Like it. It was to avoid having the, the, the Pharisees and Sadducees rise up against Jesus early and take it.

Zechariah Eshack: 34:55

Obviously, god has control over that stuff, yeah, but it is interesting to note that he is warning them not to declare who he was and the last possible reason why he did it could potentially be it's a strategic move on his part and he's trying to intentionally be deceptive, where he is concealing himself and his true identity from the devil, which would fall in, fall in that line of a little bit more of origin and um Gregory of Nyssa's viewpoint that the devil was tricked into accepting Christ and then, since Christ and his divinity, it's like he swallowed up death and death could not contain him.

Kathryn Eshack: 35:40

Yeah, I thought it was interesting. When I was looking into this part too, I looked I found a quote by Athanasius actually, and his what he said, and this is a quote Jesus silenced the demons because he did not wish that the truth should proceed from an unclean mouth. So that's kind of that was his thoughts on why he silenced the demons.

Zechariah Eshack: 36:03

OK, yeah, which could potentially be, but it also doesn't explain why he would tell people that he healed. To the Correct, yeah.

Kathryn Eshack: 36:12

Because he told people also not to. And it could be. He didn't want a big crowd around him at all times, following him and bringing attention to him, causing an uprise, because obviously that's not what he was intending. He wasn't to start a war, that type of war that a lot of them thought he was there to do.

Zechariah Eshack: 36:36

Oh yeah, there's times when Jesus disrupted the Pharisees and Sadducees so much that they were trying to take hold of him, whether to try to stone him or throw him off a cliff, or whatever their intentions were. It sounded like that they were trying to capture him and he would escape.

Kathryn Eshack: 36:53

Yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 36:54

So maybe it could have been trying to avoid those type of uh scenarios. Um, so that's, that's the thing with the atonement. The atonement's very interesting because some of these atonement uh concepts that are kind of tied to, um, you know, like christus, victor, victor is the concept that obviously he had defeated over death, you know his cosmic triumph over the demonic powers, and that's kind of more closely associated with the proclamation to the fallen angels. I don't think it's exclusively so, but I mean, it does seem like it's very closely connected to that. Yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 37:44

I guess, with all three different possible potentialities, I guess I could see all three of them being possible, because even the paradise-only view if Jesus says today, you will be with me in paradise, to the thief on the cross right, if Jesus says today, you will be with me in paradise, to the thief on the cross right, like I said, it goes back to a timeline thing, because it's like that doesn't necessarily necessitate that he didn't descend into Hades, but then also, immediately after making his proclamation and then ascending, his spirit ascending into heaven, because in the afterworld, who's to say how time works?

Kathryn Eshack: 38:15

Yeah, I mean, you know, here on earth, to us it was three days.

Zechariah Eshack: 38:19

Yeah.

Kathryn Eshack: 38:20

Or you know to people that lived back then when they but yeah, so that's three days, but like in the afterworld or in the afterlife who's to say how time works exactly so he could have very well been in heaven with him that day. You know?

Zechariah Eshack: 38:36

Yeah, I think so, and I think that, like I said, today, you'll be with me in paradise. He could be referencing his divinity too, like that's another potential um uh reasoning where it's like it doesn't necessarily like. I favor the idea that, obviously, that he went to heaven right away, but I could also see the idea that, well, how do we explain those people who resurrected? Like I said, that gets glossed over all the time. I feel like no one talks about it, but I feel like it's pretty big news when people start rising out of the graves and how many people it doesn't really say yeah, but I mean that that

Zechariah Eshack: 39:23

would fall in line with hey, is that a first potential resurrection? Yeah, going off of the other ideas of the atonement, um, because I could see how origin and gregory of nysa, um, their view of like tricking Satan, and you know about the ransom view, I could see that being directly tied to his descent into hell, right, so I didn't want to leave out that, those views of the like or that view of the atonement, so the other one actually kind of reverses it. The reformed view is, I find, very fascinating, of course. So Calvin, for example, he believed that the descent into hell that's referenced in the Apostles' Creed means suffering God's wrath, not necessarily, not really a location that Christ himself went to. And then Luther seems like he affirmed the descent into hell, but he seems a little bit more vague as to like it's a little bit more of a mystery. We don't really know, because right, because it is a little bit more speculative.

Zechariah Eshack: 40:24

I can't say that. You know, it doesn't seem like anyone knows for sure. We're just given these glimpses into what the Bible says about what Christ did, and so the penal substitutionary atonement view is kind of derived from Anselm's view, because Anselm actually he rejected the ransom to Satan theory and he proposed a new theory is that basically Christ when he died on the cross it was restoring divine honor and the Reformers kind of built upon his view. So the ransom that was paid was not to the devil. In this view it kind of flips it. The ransom was paid to God, right, and with penal substitution or atonement. This is kind of closely related to Yom Kippur, which we watched a video on last night. Did you have anything that you wanted to closely related to Yom Kippur, which we watched a video on last night? Did you have anything that you wanted to bring up about Yom Kippur, anything that you found interesting about it?

Kathryn Eshack: 41:22

Maybe just what I talked to you about just before we started the episode, but to think about, like Jesus, representing both goats in that sacrifice in the Old Testament, a sacrifice of the unblemished, perfect lamb to God and then the goat that was. They transferred the sins of the people onto the one goat that they sent out into outside of the camp into the desert to wander and then would eventually just die yeah because that Sproul has a really interesting video about the.

Zechariah Eshack: 42:03

I think it's just called the Curse Motif in I think it's the Book of Leviticus, I believe. But basically on Yom Kippur, on the, I think it's the Day of the Atonement. Now there's some biblical evidence to to kind of back back this theory up about penal substitutionary atonement and I'll say this is that he who knew no sin became sin, that we might become the righteousness of God. So you hear, you have that transference, you have that imputation. That's one. Two, you have, um, the idea, uh, I think it's Paul talks about this and he harkens back to the Old Testament about there being the passage that cursed is anyone who hangs on a tree. And then obviously Christ hung on a tree and you know there's that passage that Christ came to give himself as a ransom for many.

Kathryn Eshack: 42:54

So there's that ransom type language being yeah, it is interesting how Calvin kind of went off the satisfaction theory, because I'm pretty sure that's what I mean. That's mostly what the Catholic Church holds to is the satisfactory theory.

Zechariah Eshack: 43:12

That's the thing I think that to is the satisfactory theory.

Kathryn Eshack: 43:16

That's the thing.

Zechariah Eshack: 43:17

I think that, but it's almost like Calvin kind of extended it into more of the penal substitution. Yeah, so they would hold to a satisfaction theory. So both are satisfaction theories right.

Zechariah Eshack: 43:37

I think the difference, from what I can tell the difference would be for penal substitutionary atonement is the fact that it is um it's a ransom being paid to god and it is more of um god's wrath being poured out on christ. So basically he pays the penalty due to our sins, which I think from a catholic perspective I mean obviously the catholic church would hold that um, that that obviously Christ did pay for sins on the cross right, he died for people's sins, but where they would deviate would be that they don't think that it's God's wrath being poured out on God, the Son from God, the Father right.

Zechariah Eshack: 44:12

Obviously, scripture does repeatedly talk about God's wrath towards the wicked, and I guess the idea would be how do you placate that, if I'm using that term correctly, how do you level that right? Level that right Like if God is angry with the wicked and no wickedness can enter into his domain, his territory, into heaven where he resides, full satisfaction has to be made. Yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 44:49

So both parties would agree that satisfaction has to be made one way or the other. But in more of the penal substitutionary atonement is that there's that double imputation where Christ, he takes all of the sins, all of our burdens, he takes all of that on himself and then he transfers and gives us his righteousness. So that's a double imputation view and one that I think that people think is primarily an innovation that came with the Reformation. But I don't really see it that way, because Augustine, in one of his works, basically says the same thing and which I found to be really kind of fascinating, because it's like sometimes in theology, which I found to be really kind of fascinating, because it's like sometimes in theology, there's a lot of things that aren't necessarily new but just kind of reworded or built upon. Right, because with Jehovah's Witnesses, their non-Trinitarianism is not anything new.

Zechariah Eshack: 45:48

Arius talked about it first. So some of these, whether it's good theology or bad theology, sometimes they have ancient origins, but yeah, so there was a little bit of kind of we were talking a little bit earlier and I wanted to get a little bit more of your take on it. So with Yom Kippur you have the sins of the people being transferred to the goat and, from what you remember, it's not the goat that's sacrificed, right, it's the goat that's actually sent out into the wilderness.

Kathryn Eshack: 46:19

I'm pretty sure it's the one that's sent out. Okay, yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 46:23

Because I kind of missed that part of the video.

Kathryn Eshack: 46:27

So the goat you think both goats kind of represent two different roles that Jesus does In the theory that you're bringing up in regards to Penal substitutionary atonement. Yeah, but what did you call it Double?

Zechariah Eshack: 46:42

I think double imputation is probably a part of penal substitutionary atonement.

Kathryn Eshack: 46:47

That's kind of what that reminds me of. That would make sense if he were to represent both goats. Yeah, yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 46:54

Right if he were to represent both goats. Yeah, yeah, right, yeah, because what's kind of crazy about Yom Kippur and the language that's being used is that there was one goat that was for the Lord and one for Azazel. The only other time I've read it, I read the name. Azazel was in the Book of Enoch, and it's a fallen angel.

Zechariah Eshack: 47:16

I think he's actually cast out into a desert place, which, um would be make sense, which would be tartarus and also, too, the whole um on yom kippur, when they would send the goat out with the sins of the people, like obviously sent it outside the camp, they would put them into the desert and then they obviously would probably eventually die from heat or starvation or whatever. I want to fixate on or focus on that a little bit desert, that it's a representation of Christ being almost like abandoned on the cross, because obviously with penal substitutionary atonement, a big verse, I think, is where Jesus says on the cross my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? This harkens back to the book of the Psalms where.

Zechariah Eshack: 48:12

David quotes this, and I don't think Jesus is necessarily just quoting. I think that David is prophesying that this is what Jesus is going to say I'm sure. Obviously Jesus would know that. So there's that idea that he was almost forsaken because he bore the sins of the people. God's wrath is being poured out on him so in a way it's I don't want to say abandoned, but forsaken temporarily. Yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 48:43

And I also could see the goat being sent out into the desert could also be representative of Christ when he dies descending into Hades, of Christ when he dies descending into Hades. And since, like I said, the desert place that Azazel is sent to, they describe it in the book of Enoch as like a desert place in the abyss I think there's a connection there.

Kathryn Eshack: 49:08

It's basically what I'm getting at. No, I could see that.

Zechariah Eshack: 49:11

Yeah, definitely. Oh, I could see that. Yeah, definitely. So it's not that the other goat or other lamb is necessarily, it's obviously not sacrificed to Azazel, and some actually hypothesize that Azazel is just a place meaning like the desert, not really meaning to be a specific person or demon, but yeah, I did find those connections kind of interesting, how they all kind of tie together.

Kathryn Eshack: 49:44

So when it comes to the satisfactions theory, I think we can both agree like Jesus, through His obedience, made a complete and sufficient sacrifice for humanity's disobedience to God, which then balanced out the injustice that was caused by sin at the start of humanity, yeah, at the fall.

Zechariah Eshack: 50:04

So yeah, now that we've kind of unpacked a little bit of this I mean, it's a lot to absorb and there's a lot of potentialities here I thought it was worth mentioning that all three not all three are necessarily mutually exclusive. I would say that the ones that are most opposed to each other are probably that he ascended into heaven right away and that he was only in heaven when he died. I would think that that would conflict with the other two views. But, like we talked about, obviously, the time frame there and how time works, I don't know if it works differently or it's the exact same in the afterlife, but yeah, so there's, after bringing up the scriptures and what some of the early church fathers have mentioned, I think it's given us a lot to digest and I think, in summary though I think what it can, it kind of goes back to that revelation passage right, that Christ has like dominion and he has authority, which what the keys kind of represent a little bit of of that, he has the keys of death and Hades. Yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 51:11

And it's really important to kind of know which actual version of the word is being used, because some of these translations aren't necessarily the most accurate. Not that they're bad translations, necessarily, but like some of those small terms could make a big difference. Right, like when we talk about you, know I'm with you, even until the end of the age. When we talk about you, know I'm with you even until the end of the age. Anytime the word age is used in the New Testament I think it was maybe in the King James Version they would always use the world the end of the world, and the end of the age and the end of the world might not necessarily be the same thing.

Zechariah Eshack: 51:49

So was there anything else you kind of wanted to touch on before we close?

Kathryn Eshack: 51:53

No, no, I think we went over quite a bit.

Zechariah Eshack: 51:56

Awesome. Well, thanks again for coming on, Katie I mean. I think next topic we're going to discuss is, I think the Philly Oakway is the one I'm leaning towards.

Zechariah Eshack: 52:06

So we'll probably have an episode on that soon, because it is an important doctrine and one that separates Eastern Christians from Western Christians, and one I think that the East particularly has harsh sentiments against the West about. So we're going to maybe look at in our next episode together. We're going to look at if any of the early church fathers like what views they held on the filioque and what scriptural grounds can be found and maybe a little bit of what the Orthodox view is. Obviously. So we'll dive deeper into that. And well, thanks again for coming on. Yeah, thank you.

Kathryn Eshack: 52:46

I really appreciate it. You're welcome.

Zechariah Eshack: 52:49

Yeah, no problem.

Kathryn Eshack: 52:50

Looking forward to it.

Zechariah Eshack: 52:51

Yeah, me too. I think that that will be one that you're you'll particularly be interested in hopefully have a little bit more to say it's okay, I kind of threw, I kind of sprung this on you a little bit last minute that's okay yeah, I appreciate you joining me today to talk about it. You're welcome, all right, we'll see you next time, all right, bye.

Scripture:

• 1 Peter 3:18–20

• Ephesians 4:8–10

• Acts 2:27, 31

• Luke 23:43

• Revelation 1:17–18

• Matthew 27:52–53

• 2 Peter 2:4

• Jude 1:6

• Psalms (quoted in reference to forsakenness)

Creeds & Catechisms:

• Apostles’ Creed

• Heidelberg Catechism (Q&A 44)

Early Church Fathers:

• Irenaeus – on Christ preaching to the righteous dead

• Tertullian – affirms literal descent

• Origen – ransom theory

• Gregory of Nyssa – Christus Victor and tricking Satan

• Augustine – on Jesus silencing demons

• Athanasius – on unclean mouths declaring truth

Theological Works & Themes:

• Christus Victor view

• Penal substitutionary atonement

• Satisfaction theory (Anselm)

• Double imputation

• Yom Kippur (Leviticus typology)

• Book of Enoch (Azazel and Tartarus)

1. What does the phrase “He descended into hell” mean in the Apostles' Creed?

   This line has sparked debate for centuries. Some understand it as a literal descent into the realm of the dead, where Christ proclaimed victory or released the righteous who had died before His coming. Others, especially in the Reformed tradition, view it more figuratively, believing it refers to Jesus enduring the full weight of divine wrath on the cross rather than making a physical descent after death.

2. Is there a difference between Hades and Hell in the Bible?

   Yes, and the distinction matters. In Scripture, Hades typically refers to the temporary place of the dead—similar to the Hebrew concept of Sheol. Hell, often translated from Gehenna, refers to the final place of judgment. There’s also Tartarus, used in 2 Peter, which describes a specific prison for fallen angels. These are separate realms in the biblical imagination, though English translations sometimes blur the lines.

3. Did Jesus go to paradise immediately after His death?

   In Luke 23:43, Jesus tells the thief on the cross, “Today you will be with me in paradise.” Some take this to mean Jesus’ spirit entered heaven immediately. Others suggest that "paradise" refers to a distinct part of Hades reserved for the righteous, and that time in the spiritual realm might not follow the same sequence as we experience it.

4. What is happening in Matthew 27:52–53 with the raised saints?

   This mysterious passage describes tombs opening and many saints rising after Jesus' resurrection. It is one of the most puzzling verses in the New Testament. Some believe it was a visible sign of Christ’s victory over death. Others speculate that it foreshadows the resurrection of believers or connects symbolically to the 144,000 referenced in Revelation.

5. Who are the “spirits in prison” that 1 Peter 3 refers to?

   There are two main interpretations. Some say they are human souls from Noah’s time, while others believe they are fallen angels—possibly the ones mentioned in Genesis 6. In this view, Christ’s proclamation was not an offer of salvation, but a formal declaration of His triumph over spiritual powers.

6. How does Christ’s descent relate to the doctrine of atonement?

   The descent into the realm of the dead ties closely to how one understands the atonement. The Christus Victor view sees it as Christ invading the stronghold of death and defeating it. The penal substitution model focuses more on Jesus absorbing the justice due for sin. Each framework shapes how we understand what Christ achieved between His death and resurrection.

Books

• The Apostles’ Creed: A Guide to the Ancient Catechism by Ben Myers

• He Descended to the Dead: An Evangelical Theology of Holy Saturday by Matthew Emerson

• The Death of Death in the Death of Christ by John Owen

• The Atonement by Leon Morris

Primary Sources

• Against Heresies by Irenaeus

• De Principiis by Origen

• On the Soul and the Resurrection by Gregory of Nyssa

• Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin (Book II, Chapter 16)

• Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther (contextual views on descent and atonement)

Videos

• R.C. Sproul on “The Curse Motif in the Atonement”

• Bible Project: “Day of Atonement”

• Sermons or lectures on 1 Peter 3:18–20, Ephesians 4, or the Apostles’ Creed