The Doctrine of Regeneration

Special Guests: Bobby & Garrett of the Stay Reformed Podcast

Season 2 Episode 6 Transcript

Welcome to The Restless Theologian podcast, where we focus on having insightful conversations in biblical history and theology. I'm your host, Zechariah Eshack. For the 6th episode of our season 2, we will be discussing the doctrine of regeneration. Now I have 2 special guests on with me from the State Reform Podcast. It's my pleasure to introduce both Bobby and Garrett.

How are you doing, Garrett? Hi. Bobby? We're doing great. Yeah.

Doing great. Doing awesome, man. Thanks for having us on. Yeah. Yeah.

Thanks for coming on. So you guys, you're both, reformed Baptist? Yeah. We are. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I didn't grow up reformed Baptist. I definitely wasn't even Baptist. I think part of my story, you know, as I shared before we we hopped on the call here, I'm if if your listeners maybe they're not, but, they're maybe they're not familiar with this.

But I grew up in an Anabaptist background, so very Arminian. Specifically, the tradition I came from was the Brethren denomination, and my dad was actually a pastor in that denomination. He went to seminary in Ashland, Ashland Theological Seminary, to be exact. I remember reading on your website, you're from Northeast Ohio as well. So is that correct?

Yep. Yeah. I was, I was actually born in South Carolina, but, like, I didn't spend a whole lot of time there. I actually was raised in Medina County, so Wadsworth. Yeah.

Yeah. I know that. And then early adult, Akron. And then as I got older, I migrated to Canton. Right.

Yeah. So those are some similar areas that I was familiar with. You know, I spent I'm not from Ohio originally, but I spent bulk of my life in Ashland, when my dad was in seminary and then also in Mansfield, Ohio when he planted a church out there. But, you know, as time progressed and, I came into my adult years, I moved back to the East Coast. My family you know, my parents live here and, all of that.

And so sort of growing up in that, I guess, soup as it were of, you know, the Anabaptist background. It it was certainly, a leap for me when I became convinced of the doctrines of grace or Calvinism as it's sometimes termed, infamously or famously. I'm not sure. But Depends on what side you're on. That's that's exactly right.

So He's talking. I I try to softball it by saying doctrines of grace. It's a little more palatable, you know, versus mentioning John Calvin. But, anyways Yeah. So with man's Mansfield okay.

So I didn't know this, but Yeah. Are you guys I I think it was maybe your production. The guy that handles maybe a little bit more of your audio, I saw that he was in a band, and Mhmm. He was in the heavier music. Yeah.

Yeah. He Are you guys as well? I I mean, I'm definitely not in a, metal band. That's for sure. I, grew up playing bluegrass, so not don't really fit in the the metal scene.

However, Kyle, our producer Yeah. He is a member of a Christian metal core band called Context. They actually just released an EP, so free advertisement for him. Yeah. They're not paying me for that.

But yeah. He Yeah. He he they're in the metal scene pretty hard. Yeah. Okay.

Okay. Awesome. Yeah. That's how I grew up. I mean, I definitely my brother was in a band going to shows all the time.

And and when you said Mansfield, I just saw today that With Blood Comes Cleansing was gonna be in Mansfield today, and I was like, oh, man. Wish I would have known about that Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This evening.

But but, anyway, actually, I wanted to ask you, Bobby. So Yeah. Mhmm. So for, Anabaptist Yeah. I feel like a lot of people don't know a lot about Anabaptist.

Sure. Sure. Is is there is that part of, like are they similar to Quaker or Mennonite? What what what exactly are they formally known as usually? Yeah.

So Anabapt Anabaptists are it's sort of a spectrum, I guess, you could say, like, how pietistic, I guess, would be the word for it in how they they live. So it's Arminian, obviously, and it's soteriology. But, when it comes to anabaptism or anabaptist I keep saying baptism, Anabaptists. They were part of a stream that was called the radical reformation, and so they had definitely differing views. Because a lot of people try to tie Baptist to, Anabaptist because the aspect of believers' baptism.

Okay. But, as far as where I was from, it was more of the so the brethren, I I guess you could tie it in some respects to the the teachings of of Mennasimans and all of that. And and I guess the closest relative theologically would be Mennonites, but we certainly weren't driving around in black cars or anything like that. We dressed normal and and all of that, but there's some overlap in the the theological views and so on. Okay.

But, yeah, interesting background for sure. One of the things, the hallmarks of the Brethren denomination, at least, thinking back to my childhood, I remember they always talked about we believe the whole Bible and nothing but the Bible. Yeah. But it's interesting because there's no, like, confessional standard that says, when we say that, we mean this. You know?

It wasn't qualified in any respect. And then, something else with the Brethren denomination is they're pacifists as well, so they are resistant to join any military action whatsoever. So, definitely, it was a huge departure for me as I started to read more reformed, leaning things. And for me, you know, as I said, I I became convinced of the doctrines of grace in my my adult years. And it wasn't necessarily like I I took this weird path because it started with, you know, obviously, I would say that even though I was raised in an Anabaptist denomination, they they certainly do emphasize, the sufficiency of scripture.

So I wanna be charitable in that respect. I don't think they're heretical in any sense. There's lots of good people within that tradition. Like I said, my dad, went to a school like that. That's what I was raised in was that.

Okay. Are you is he still preaching in No. The movement? Or No. He's not a well, it's interesting because that's a whole another story, but my dad is definitely closer to the doctrines of grace now.

He's he's soon to be a reformed Baptist. He's very soon, and and maybe that's a that'll be another discussion. For another day. Yeah. If you have us back on, we'll talk more about that.

He's not an active pulpit ministry currently. He's still faithfully attending a church. They're, my parents, my mom and dad, they go to a Southern Baptist Church, up the road in Maryland. We're we're in, like, pretend West Virginia, so it's, like, barely West Virginia where Garrett and I both, reside. He's sort of you're further south than me about how much, Garrett?

Currently? Yeah. Like, 20 miles? Yeah. 20 miles.

And I'm, like, right up the road on the line of Maryland and West Virginia. But, yeah, my dad, he's he's no longer in active pulpit ministry, but ministers in other ways. Yeah. Mhmm. Okay.

Yeah. That's great. Yeah. So, Garrett, I kind of glossed over you a little bit when it came to your background. You I know you're a reformed Baptist now, but have you always been that way?

Or is it Well, I'd first like to say you didn't gloss over me. Captain Longwind here, he'll just talk. He'll he'll he'll lead the conversation. No. I'm kidding.

I I didn't grow up Reform Baptist. I did grow up in in every church we attended as a family growing up, but it always was Baptist. And I always joke and say, I don't think that was intentional. I think it was just kind of every church we ended up in was Baptist. And then even in the college, and it was always just they somehow were always Southern Baptist.

That was never a real conviction, or it's like, I need to find a Southern Baptist Church. It was just where I always ended up. And then, probably after college, started taking my faith seriously, and, we're talking 2016, 2017, start listening to some of the, young restless reform guys, Chandler and Driscoll and some of well, I guess that was post Driscoll. But, you know, some of those guys, Kevin DeYoung and and those people that and they kind of introduced me to the, you know, reformed side of things and then, started attending a a Southern Baptist Church with Calvinistic teaching, and then it was kind of full steam ahead to the confessional reformed side of things. Yeah.

Okay. We took Oh, that's okay. No. I was just gonna say we took a different track for sure. I didn't mention it, but so he was, like, the YRR guy, the, young restless reformed.

And then for me, it was more of the MacArthur. Right? I was, like, you know, listening to Grace to You. I still listen to Grace to You. I love John MacArthur, but he he wouldn't be classified technically as, quote, unquote, reformed.

He's just Calvinistic. So that was my path. Yeah. I think it's kind of it can be confusing for people that don't come from, or at least don't know the distinctions within Protestantism in regards to reforms, like, even I don't know, years ago. I mean, I would even get MacArthur confused as reforms because we kinda generalized it as being of 5 points of Calvinism, the 5 solos of the reformation, and then you have that combination, and then basically you're reformed.

But that's not really how it is. And 2, I think that, from outsiders, I think maybe more of the orthodox and Roman Catholic, I think that when they hear reformed, they kinda generalize as all Protestantism rather than thinking of reformed theology specifically. Right. Yeah. They lump us in there with the Lutherans and so on.

We, you know, we love Lutherans that hold to the sufficiency of scripture, but there's a distinction, certainly. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. So we'll get right into it.

But the first question I have for you guys Yeah. How does regeneration take place? Yeah. I mean, I think one of the important points that you brought up in, sort of what you sent out to us, to think through this was the question of versus synergism. You know, I'm confident probably many in your audience, I would imagine, have heard those terms.

But in the slight chance that they aren't familiar with it, simply put, monergism, as I understand it, is the idea that the lord himself is the one that does all the work from front to back or start to finish in terms of saving a sinner or regenerating them. Whereas, synergism asserts that man partners with God to bring about his salvation. And, obviously, that's probably an oversimplified description. That's certainly true. But it high level view of it, though.

Yeah. Absolutely. And so I would say that monergism from the study of scripture in in my mind is the most consistent hermeneutic in terms of how the Lord saves someone. Because the thing we have to we talked about this in a a episode recently that we recorded that's about to come out. But, the idea that, by nature, we're dead in our sin.

Right? We don't want God. That's that's the thing that we have to remember. Because oftentimes, we we think about that song. It's a it's a hymn, and I understand the sentiment, but the whole thing of I've decided to follow Jesus or I have decided to follow Jesus.

But the truth of the matter is in scripture, it's quite clear that we don't make any decision to follow Jesus. Now what what we need to distinguish there is that, if we look at a text like Ezekiel 3626 through 27, which we quote often, and I'll read it here. It's coming out of the ESV. It says, and I will give you a new heart and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

And I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. So this isn't just like an obscure proof text that we pulled to support our point, But we know that as we said talking about dead in our sins, Romans 39 through 20 reminds us that none is righteous. No. Not one. No one understands.

No one seeks for God. All have turned aside. Together, they have become worthless. The they there is speaking about mankind. No one does good, not even one.

Their throat is an open grave. They use their tongues to deceive. The venom of asps is under their lips. Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood, and their path are ruined and misery in the way of peace they have not known.

There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that whatever the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law so that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law, no human being will be justified in his sight since through the law comes the knowledge of sin. So this section of sacred scripture, Paul is telling us that the state of affairs of mankind, it doesn't just apply to the Jews or the Gentiles. It's both.

There's distinctly covenantal language in this section of scripture, and that's key to remember. And I know we plan to probably talk about John 3 because that's a natural passage, but, I think it's helpful to sort of unpack that idea that monergism is the most consistent view that we see in scripture. Yeah. That whole monergistic, synergistic conversation is is a tough one to have with, you know, we're we're coming at this from a a Calvinistic standpoint. Mhmm.

It's tough to have that conversation with someone who's a, I I would say, a faithful Arminian. Mhmm. Because I I had a pastor once who, really you know, we we joke and say a lot of people call Calvinism the the doctrines of demons. But but I he fell into that thought that that Calvinism was evil and that, you know, all this whatever. We won't get into that.

But when he would be when he would express his view of regeneration, he was very Calvinistic. It was very no man comes to the father except who draws him. So there we have to be careful to pit the sides against each other of, like, if you're an Arminian and you believe solely synergistic, solely, you know I don't know how to put what I'm trying to say. But what I'm what I'm getting in is, like, the monergistic view, like Bobby said, is the most biblical view that that god calls, god draws, and then that's when we walk in faith. Yep.

Exactly. Yeah. I think, one of the things that we have to look at, and and you brought up some really good points, brother. We have to remember, and John 6 talks about this, that no one comes to the father, unless he is drawn to the father. And so we need to remember that.

Or no one comes to Christ rather unless the father first draws him, and we see that supported in John 644, obviously. But, you know, as far as reform perspectives go that I mean, monergism dovetails with, reform soteriology and little r reformed. So, you know, this episode, obviously, we're focusing on regeneration, and I would say that, yes, regeneration does precede faith. That's a consistent view that we see, not just presented in, quote, unquote, church history, but it's actually grounded in the biblical text itself. And, I know that you had talked about, one of the key texts in this discussion is John 3.

So Yeah. Jesus in this in this text, we wanna sort of lay or set out the table of of what's going on here. So Nicodemus obviously is this teacher within Israel. And so in this discussion, he's coming to Jesus at night because, obviously, he would have had public ridicule had he come to him during the daytime. And so as a teacher of Israel, he's coming to Christ with these questions, and Jesus flips the script on him in terms of understanding how, one is justified.

And so, I know Garrett said I'm long winded, so I'll be long Perfectly perfectly fine. I'm pretty long winded myself. I've I've been deemed captain long wind whether I like it or not. That's the nickname I've been given on this podcast. So let's look at John 3.

So this is gonna be coming out of the ESV, and it's, verses 1 through 21. And so this is gonna be quoting verbatim here. So it says, now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him. Jesus answered him, truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus said to him, how can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born? Jesus answered, truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, you must be born again.

And this is a key text that, just for our listeners to sort of hold in their mind. Jesus says here, the wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So hang hang your hat on that thought and just think about that as we continue on. It says, so it is not with everyone who is born or so it is with everyone rather who is born of the spirit. Nicodemus said to him, how can these things be?

Jesus answered him, are you the teacher of Israel? I love that he, like, pokes at him. Like, you're the teacher of Israel, and you don't know this. And yet you do not understand these things. Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony.

If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the son of man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the son of man be lifted up. And whoever believes in him may have eternal life. And then, of course, the classic passage, for God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

For god did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. And this is a helpful passage to remember in light of 16. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only son of God, and this is the judgment. The light has come into the world, and people love the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light.

Once again, we're looking at individuals that do wicked things do not come to the light, lest his work should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, and this is helpful so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out by who? His unregenerate state? No. In God.

So just in a couple notes to think through, I wanted to point out, number 1, that this text, without doing a deep exegetical breakdown, verse 8 and verse 21 are really the 2 passages that lay this out. Because oftentimes you know? And we've done this. I think probably all 3 of us could say this before we came to an understanding of the doctrines of grace. We we think of John 316.

It's saying, god so loved the world that whosoever and we just hammer that whosoever point all the time that whosoever makes a decision. Well, no. That's not what the text is saying. Verse 8 and verse 21 are the key things that help us see what what is going on here. Verse 8 states, the wind blows where it wishes and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes, so it is with everyone who is born of the spirit.

So this statement right here is the heart of the whole discussion. Our Lord emphasizes the wind or the spirit is is one guided by his own purposes, having regeneration wrought in the heart. And so it's important to remember that word wind and spirit are, honestly, they're used interchangeably in Koine Greek, and the word is. So when you see wind here and then spirit, Jesus is making a a distinction and tying those two things together. And then finally, in verse 21, he notes that the good works demonstrate a change or a disposition change that has occurred in the rebel sinner, now transferred into God's kingdom.

And we see this in parallel passages of scripture. Ephesians 2 is an idea on that, but I'll I digress. I'll let you guys chime in here on that. Garrett, do you wanna go first or should I? Go ahead.

Go ahead. Okay. Yeah. I really like how you used, pneuma. I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that correctly, actually.

I just watched the RC scroll video yesterday, and he brought up that exact same thing about the wind and the spirit kinda being used interchangeably Mhmm. Which I thought was really cool. But I do definitely like the idea of or the picture that Jesus is painting about, you know, you don't know where it's coming from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who's born of the spirit. So there's this mystery about it, and of course, you can't since it's invisible, you can't see it.

I think, you know, I came across the video, and I didn't watch it, but I I I knew it was where it was gonna be going, but it was by, Trent Horn, and he was talking about Steve Lawson Mhmm. And how it, you know, kinda destroys the idea of eternal security. I'll have to watch the video just to kind of listen to what he says. But I think this idea of, like, I don't think we need to have the assumption that, like, what going off of what you said, Bobby, about, you know, the good works being portrayed in a believer's life, about how that's, you know, shows evidence that, you know, there were new creation. Mhmm.

But I think that there's some complexity to it because, I mean, you look at all of the old testament, and it's, like, one after the other. You know, David, you know, adultery, murder, and then you kind of have these situations where, yeah, they have serious falls, but they also repent of those falls. Yeah. So I don't think that we necessarily need to go running for the hills because, you know, a believer, you know, he could be a faithful preacher, and then they slip up, they make a mistake. I mean, I think what separates them is, you know, actually repenting of what they've done Yeah.

Rather than, you know, anytime that someone has a serious sentence, like, oh, look. They were never a believer to begin with. Mhmm. I don't think we have to have that mentality. Yeah.

1 and I think, another passage on that is if you think about 1st John 2 19 where it talks about they went out from us because they were never of us. For if they were of us, they would have continued with us. And so, like Right. Steve Lawson, I mean, yeah, it's sad for sure in that. And I think, you know, probably all 3 of us would say we benefited from him, over the years.

I know I have personally. But when when a believer falls, it doesn't necessarily mean so it's a distinction of, is it that he fell and lost what he had? No. He he didn't fall and and lose salvation. We pray for his repentance, but it remains yet to be seen whether he, you know, was of the Lord or or whether he wasn't.

And if he wasn't, then we defer to that passage in first John 2 19 where it's saying, they went out from us because they were never of us. It doesn't prove anything because a man falls that he does or does not have salvation. We we are, susceptible to our old nature. I mean, in Romans 6 and 7, if we look at both of those chapters, Paul lays that out quite clearly. So that's something to to remember in that case specifically.

Well, but some argue the Romans 7, Paul's not regenerate yet. That's a stretch, I think. Yeah. I also agree. I'm I'm thinking through, you know, what what Nicodemus would have been thinking when Jesus is saying this.

Because I think sometimes we kinda make a joke about this. How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time in his mother's womb and be born? And I you know, we we kind of think like, oh, you know, I don't know. We make we make jokes about that.

But, really, I mean, this this would have been a mind blowing reality for him, like and it would have been weird to think through. And and so I I think it's also the same for us when we really think about we have to be born of the spirit again, and what does that mean? How does that look like? You know, I'm thankful we're having this conversation today about regeneration, and, I think, you know, we'll get into what comes first regeneration or faith. And I I I think that's a very important conversation to have whether you're a Calvinist or not.

Mhmm. Yeah. You know, I I think this this would have been mind blowing for Nicodemus, and it it it should ought to be for us too that, you know, we need to be born of the spirit to be one of God's children, and that's, you know, it's it's a it's a neat and and mind blowing thought. Yep. So I wanted to bring in a little bit of, specifically reformed theologians and kind of briefly go over some of their understanding of going back to what you said regeneration and faith and which one comes first.

Mhmm. Because I've often found that, like, usually, sometimes wrong belief. It's, you know, it's not intentional, like, all the time, but, like, it does matter about the order. Mhmm. And I think it's same thing with faith and works.

So John Calvin and, a lot of others, I think it's Berkoff. I I've read a little bit of his Yep. Understanding of regeneration. And, man, he he is just very I love how he can make something that's so complicated and just elaborate on it Mhmm. Where it just it makes sense.

I'm kinda new to Berkoff. I've I haven't really read a whole lot of them. He's good. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. In this discussion, I found it very, enlightening. Mhmm. So BB Warfield in his defense of, the doctrine that regeneration precedes, you know, comes before faith. And as you know that the formal term for this is ordo salutis, which means the order of salvation.

Yep. Situating regeneration, being prior, and, Wayne Grudem is another one that concurs with this. And I I would find that it's not just reformed theologians, but there are a lot of, theologians of antiquity. You know, Augustine held this view, so did, Saint Thomas Aquinas. Now we can get into how that salvation is played out, and that's where we would start to maybe differ with someone like an Aquinas.

Yeah. Yeah. That's for sure. Definitely him. Well, you know, it earlier, I brought up that my old pastor who was a staunch Arminian who, this is something that he you know, I'll speak for him.

He he won't listen to this, so he won't know any different. But Does he even know what a podcast is? Yeah. Yeah. We actually recorded an episode one time, but it was just, years ago.

So this is where he's a staunch Arminian, but he he would still agree, I I think, in conversations that he and I had had, that regeneration has to proceed faith Mhmm. In in a in a different way, kind of a nuanced way than what the traditional reform view is, or even the, Augustinian view or or Aquinas's view. Mhmm. It's kind of nuanced with an Arminian a true Arminian view. Yeah.

But but even I think there are faithful Arminians that can say, you know, God has to draw the person first. Mhmm. The the the person can't just you know, the the guy alone in the jungle can't just one day become a Christian. Like, God has to work to make that happen. So it's, it's not just a matter of of Calvinistic beliefs.

Yeah. Well, you know, we're talking about, different traditions here, and I think it would be we'd be remiss if we didn't bring in, that we're confessionally reformed Baptists. And, yeah, there are reformed Baptists. Contrary to what some may say, they're they are. And and that doesn't just mean, hey.

I'm a Baptist, and, hey. I believe in the doctrines of grace. There's actually more breadth to that, and that that means that we hold to a historic, Puritan era confession of faith. And so for us, it's the 2nd London Baptist confession of faith or sometimes it's called the 16/89. And, you know, reformed theologians in our tradition have answered the question on regeneration preceding faith.

And a good place to look at this is the doctrine or the topic of effectual calling, and we see this taken from chapter 10 in the 16/89. Paragraphs 1 and 2 succinctly sort of break this down, and I'm just gonna quote those here. So I think this would be helpful for your audience. I'm sure there's many coming from different, reformed backgrounds or or maybe they're just, trying to uncover what that all means. But it says this.

It says, paragraph 1 here, and god's appointed an acceptable time. He is pleased to call effectually by his word and spirit, and we just talked about the spirit idea, those whom he has predestined to life. He calls them out of their natural state of sin and death to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ. He enlightens their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, and he takes away their heart of stone and gives them a heart of flesh. He renews their wills, and by his almighty power turns them to good and effectually draws them to Jesus Christ.

And this is helpful because Arminians like to say we don't believe in free will. We believe in the will, but it's bound in sin. And this last statement's really good. It says, yet the lord here, he does this in such a way that they come completely freely since they are made willing by his grace. And that's the idea of of regeneration.

Now paragraph 2 goes on to say, this effectual call flows from God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in those calls. So God's not looking down the corridors of time. He has already purposed and willed to draw by his effectual call his elect. So it says, neither does the call arise from any power or action on their part. They are totally passive in it.

They are dead in sins and trespasses until they are made alive and renewed by the Holy Spirit. By this, they are enabled to answer this call and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it. This response is enabled, and this is this is a beautiful line here. It says, this response is enabled by a power that is no less than that which re raised Christ from the dead. And, you know, those paragraphs are helpful in remembering that God is monergistically breathing life into dead sinners, and he raises them to new life.

And I I think this is helpful to remember. That same power that rose Jesus from the dead, it took the same power of the Holy Spirit to raise if if it did take this, the power of the Holy Spirit to raise the 2nd person of the godhead to physical life once more, why would we, as fallen sinners, have the audacity if we're fallen in Adam to think that our dead nature could raise itself to spiritual life by some liberty and free will if Jesus was raised to life again by the power of the Holy Spirit. It takes no less than that to raise us from the dead spiritually. So I would also you know, we are reformed Baptists, so we we're gonna read from the 2nd London, but even the Westminster section on, effectual calling is almost identical to this. Yeah.

We just baptized and made it better. Yeah. Yeah. That makes me think of I don't know if you ever seen that meme where, Indiana Jones is switching out that jewel, and it's the Westminster Confession of Faith, and then he's replacing it with the 2nd London Baptist confession, I think. Yeah.

That's that's really I always get a chuckle out of that. Absolutely. Yeah. I still think my favorite meme of all time this is rabbit trail. My favorite meme of all time when it comes to confessions was the one, it was the scene from Pulp Fiction where Samuel L.

Jackson and John Travolta are holding the guns, And then it was the guy from the Olympics this year. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And it said the confessions, statements on the pope, and it had Westminster Savoy, and then it had the guy from the Olympics in with 16 89 above him, because it's not indirect. I'll put it that way. Yeah. That's right. It's pointed.

Go ahead, Garrett. I'm sorry. I cut you off and derailed you. Yeah. I'm so derailed.

I don't even know where I was. What I was getting at is even Westminster. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

This isn't you know, we're not just talking about reformed Baptist views. Right? Like Yeah. The this this idea of God monergistically saving, it really does come down to his sovereignty. Like, do we believe that god has the right to call his people and to give the gift of salvation, or do we believe that god has to wait for us to give permission to do that?

And I think growing up, I you know, I I grew up in Southern West Virginia, and the idea of anything other than, you know, the altar call, the the big tent revival, you know, that was so prevalent. Anything outside of that was so crazy. And I I remember when I first started looking at this idea of god being sovereign enough to monergistically to he is the author of salvation. So no one has the right to say, yes, I want it. No, I don't.

God has that right. He he wrote it. He it's his story. It's not it's not ours. And so I remember even even to this day, a lot of my family, there's still a lot of, you know, brushing up against this idea of, God being the one that gives that freely.

And it you know, I'm I'm made up to be the crazy one, which is always really, really funny to me when it comes to this idea. But I I love what you said, Bobby, that the same power that the Holy Spirit raised Christ raises us from death to life. That's exactly right. And, man, I you know, it's scripture says that we are dead in our trespasses and sins. And apart from god, apart from that power of the holy spirit calling us out of that, regenerating us out of that, we would still be there bound for perdition.

Mhmm. And, you know, I I I think I sometime bought I pick it on Bobby and say he's the brains and I'm the experience. So I look at the experience side of things, and Bobby's the the brains of the operation. But You're you're the good looks of the operation. Yeah.

I'm I'm the good looking one. The pretty one, I think, is what you've been called. There there is a brother who calls me the pretty one. However, you know, it's it's this idea that that the same power called us from death to life is the same power that called Christ from physical death to physical life. I mean, you know, if that's true, if if then how can we assume that god doesn't have the right to do that, that we have the ability even to do that?

If this when you when you think of it even from a logical standpoint, not even necessarily from a theological standpoint, it doesn't start to add up. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. There's a couple of things I wanna kinda touch on what you brought up.

The first would be that both, like John Calvin and Augustine, they really bring out about the importance of viewing it as it's not forcing, and you'll see this all the time online, especially those that have a really intense hatred for anything Calvinistic. Mhmm. It's that God is forcing a loving God wouldn't force someone against their will. First off, I mean, if you're forcing someone to get into heaven, I don't know how that that would be unloving. But secondly, it's that, you know, Calvin brings up.

It's it's one thing to force someone against their will. It's a whole another thing to make someone willing who was unwilling. Yeah. That's good. Yeah.

That's good. And that's yeah. Sorry. Go ahead. I'd say that's there's often we I I feel like what we're fighting is a caricature of Calvinism versus what act what it actually is.

Yeah. Yeah. We're fighting what you're saying, this this idea, oh, an angry god chooses some and doesn't choose others, and he's forcing, and god's a gentleman. He would it's this caricature. And when in reality, we're not looking at the character of god.

Yeah. The that loving idea that, like, you know, if he wants to force a ticket on me to heaven, I'm gonna gladly take that. Yeah. So if that's your what you're calling evil, then So be it. So be it.

Amen. I'll take it. Yeah. And, actually, I've seen it reasons recently, there was someone I noticed online. They were trying to bring up the point that okay.

So with Jacob and, Esau Mhmm. That God didn't really hate Esau. It was just that God accepted the term love just means he accepted Jacob, and then that he also that he just by default rejected Esau. And my brother had brought this up to me, and I had asked him. I said, well, what on what crowns does God accept Jacob?

I said, what was in him to love? I mean, he was a deceiver. He was a liar. And I said, and even from normal human tradition, it would have been Esau that would have the birthright, that would have the blessing by his father, but that wasn't the case. And I said, so in my opinion, it would be that, like, he accepted him because he loved him.

Mhmm. And he set his special affection upon him, which is the grounds for why, you know, why Jacob was blessed. Yeah. But I thought that that was really important to kind of, you know, you can't have a conversation about, this topic, and I feel like I feel like Jacob and Esau always ends up kinda coming up, in these conversations, because I feel like it's highly relevant. Romans 9.

Yeah. Yeah. Romans 9. I think it's one of the clearest examples of god being, outside our norm, quote, unquote. Like, you're right.

The the the birthright, the blessing, the everything belonged traditionally and kind of in our mind, it belonged to Esau. Mhmm. Jacob, the deceiver, did that, and yet it doesn't say it it says, Jacob, I loved Esau. I hated. And I, you know, I've also seen that that idea of, you know, it's not really hate.

It's, you know, he hated the you know, it's you you have to in that scenario, I think, at least, you have to look at what the text says and and really go back and and read the story of Jacob and Esau Yeah. Understand it. Yeah. And see that there was no merit in Jacob. Like, that's a great example of, you know, god had every reason to cast him out.

Yeah. Like, time after time after time of shortcoming and deceiving, and and yet god still said, I love you and I don't love you. And that that's where I think we can't let our feelings control how we interpret the scripture. Yeah. Because we've been taught, we've been told, we've been drilled into our head that god is a loving god, and this is what that means.

Mhmm. Yeah. And the problem is a lot of times that definition doesn't come from scripture. It comes from our understanding of love Yeah. When we don't have the right to define what love is because god alone has the right to define love and justice and and all these things that that are his character.

We don't have the right to define that. Yeah. Well Go ahead. Go ahead. No.

You're fine. Go ahead. I was just gonna say, yeah. I think in, especially, today's culture, it's a little bit more of an overemphasis. And, obviously, the scripture does speak that God is love.

But basically, I don't think that that should sideline all the other attributes of God. Mhmm. Mhmm. Because I mean, scripture also talks about God being holy, holy, holy. And, you know, I feel like a lot of people would just rather focus on the love aspect and not think about the actual additional attributes of who God is and and what he's told us.

You can So go ahead go ahead, Bobby. Oh, yeah. Do you wanna say something there? Say you can't have his love without those other attributes. Yeah.

Well, I I think one thing because I know sort of your next, section that you wanted to talk about was the theological systems. And, this is a natural conversation. It flows just right into that because we're we're talking about that idea of, how how is God saving people? How does he make a way for people to come to him? And, you know, Arminianism, we we pick on that a lot.

We were that, so we we understand. It. Yeah. Exactly. So we're not, like, taking cheap shots at people that holds Arminianism or just don't have a position so they just naturally end up in Arminianism.

I mean, that was true for me going back to the Anabaptist type of view. I mean, that's that's just baked into the cake, so to speak, in in that circle. But, you know, it presupposes that idea. And I I would say erroneously, it's not grounding any scripture. It's just simply based on feeling.

We think, you know, because of things like John 316 that, oh, whoever. So that means I I can do this, and it presupposes that man has the ability to come to God for pardon. And, you know, I I appreciate on your website, you list out, your confessional, sort of adherence to, what we would call classically the three forms of unity, which honestly, 2nd London has that in the background as well. So there's much that we have because, you know, sometimes people think, oh, you know, you reformed Christians are all over the map. You don't have any, you know, dovetailing doctrines or whatever.

You know, you got baby baptism over here and believer's baptism, and you just don't agree on anything. But that's just simply not. Oh, yeah. I think that baby baptism is actually called false baptism. Oh, yeah.

Sorry. Sorry. We're we're our our, That's my cheap shot of the day. I'll stop. Yeah.

Yeah. We don't wanna get ourselves, kicked off of this podcast too prematurely. But setting that aside, you know, there there is much that we have unity on. Yeah. And, again, the three forms of unity in history, is something that that we have, presupposed in the background as second London was was being formulated.

And so the language of the canons of Dort are carried over into the 16/89 on man's inability to come to God. I appreciate in I think it's article 3 of the 3rd and 4th heads of the the doctrine from the Canons of Dort. It says that therefore, all men are conceived in sin and by nature children of wrath and capable of saving good, prone to evil, dead in sin, and in bondage thereto. And without the regenerating grace in their once again of the holy spirit, they are neither able nor willing to return to God to reform the depravity of their nature or to dispose themselves to that reformation. So while, you know, we come from different denominational traditions here, our language and biblical hermeneutic on many things are in agreement.

And especially when we juxtapose our reform streams of thought and rely on careful application of sola scriptura unlike what Rome does or the Eastern Orthodox Church. Because what they do is that they say, of course, they would pay lip service to say, oh, yes. We believe in scripture. But the problem is they don't believe in the solas like we do. You know?

Even though, yes, there's Dutch reformed, Presbyterian, even, I guess, you could throw in reformed Anglicans, congregationalists, and reformed baptists. But we have a very similar understanding in hermeneutic and how this happens because we underpin what we believe in the solas. Whereas Rome and the Eastern Orthodox Church elevates tradition over the classical and the plain meaning of the text. So that's that's a key distinction to remember there. I love what doctor James Renehan, who's probably the today's most well versed scholar on reformed Baptist things, I recently heard him say something on the podcast along the lines of you look at all these traditional historic confessions, and you see he gave a percentage, I think, something like 70% in agreement Mhmm.

Amongst the the major confessions. So it's easy for us to get caught up on the differing views, but I'm thankful that this idea of regeneration that we're talking about today is shared amongst, you know, all of the reform streams. I'm I'm I'm thankful that we have this in common that we can, really just rely on and and know that we're anchored to scripture on these essential doctrines. Mhmm. That's good.

Yeah. And to go off of what you had said about, that idea of tradition and a little bit more of Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, I you definitely see it's a it's a different understanding of tradition. I think that there may be a misperception from people in those traditions of Protestantism as being that we don't respect tradition. We don't hold to any traditions. I think when they think of Protestantism, it's a little bit more generalized as the non denominational church.

I I would say, obviously, one, that wasn't my experience growing up Baptist. Like that, you know what I mean? Like, it wasn't like, people did take church seriously, and we did have our traditions like baptism, Lord's Supper. I mean, those are traditions when you really think about it, But I I think the way in which I view, tradition is that it's supposed to be kind of like a mirror and just kind of reflect back the word of God. And sometimes that mirror gets dirty, and mankind needs to clean it up and basically just be able to accurately reflect back, sacred scripture.

It's not that traditions are bad. It's not that we shouldn't have them. It's just they must be in line with God's word. That's what it's Okay. I think Yeah.

In the modern kind of this the I think the churches you're talking about, the the big popular, you know Secret presence. Yeah. Mega church idea. There's an allergy to all tradition. Yeah.

When I when in reality, I I think the posture we ought to take with tradition should be something more like we we we consistently examine it. And what I mean by that is, like, you know, not constantly change it, but I think it's examine our hearts towards it. Like, why do we care so much about the tradition? Is it because it's tradition for tradition's sake? Is it because we don't think we can experience god outside of it?

I mean, I I think there's things that we need to do self examination of, but outside of it? I mean, I I think there's things that we need to do self examination of. But even from, like, a organizational standpoint maybe for the church, you know, tradition is a good thing. And, you know, we we are so fortunate now in our days. I mean, 2000 years removed from the book of Acts being written and lived out.

You know, we have so much church history to go off of, and so I I pray that we never fall into the era of we have it right now. Like, this century has it the best it's ever had it. You know? It's like where you throw the tradition out the window and say we have it figured out now because we have all these things and all the stuff that we can do now. We understand it better.

So I don't think we should have an allergy to it. You know, I I do think in some circles I've been in in the past, it's like all tradition is bad tradition. You should be willing to shake everything up all the time without feeling a sense of, you know, unloyalty maybe or disloyalty. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Because, another point I wanted to bring up is that I feel like a lot of times that when I respond and I don't wanna go down a sola scriptura path just because I know that that's a whole that mean that's a whole episode. You'll have us back on for that. Yeah. We'd love that.

Yeah. That would be great. Yeah. With, Jesus, a lot of times, any anytime he would refute, the Pharisees and Sadducees, the devil, it's, like, well, we take our cues off of him and what he says, and so that's why I think in the reform tradition, I think we're we're very prone to saying, it is written or have you not read? Like, that's basically what we're saying Mhmm.

All the time when we are questioning a tradition that we don't think is in line with god's god's word. Yeah. So, next I wanna get into and we've kind of already touched a little bit on this, but we're gonna elaborate a little bit more about Arminian theology. And then we're work we'll work our way through a couple of different other systems. I'll let you guys speak first when it comes to can regeneration be resisted.

Mhmm. Gary, you want me to or you wanna go first? I I will go first. Alright. And then you can I've been talking a lot.

You can you can tell me where I'm wrong. No. I I would say no. Regeneration itself cannot be rejected or resisted. But I I think where what it comes down to is how do we define Regeneration.

Generation. Yeah. Because they're hard. Yeah. Because if if you view regeneration as a process, as a, you know, when when you first start feeling a certain way towards god and start slowly understanding things, or if you define regeneration as the moment that god turns your heart of stone to a a living heart that that you're brought from death to life.

If you if you believe that that moment is what regeneration is, that's what I say you can't resist or, reject. Now I say there's other what I believe is there's other things that are leading to that. It it's part of it. It's part of God drawing you. And I think everyone has to have that in some way.

You know, I you hear stories of people who get saved hearing the gospel their very first time, and I think that's amazing. I think for most people, that's just not the case. Mhmm. For most people, it's it's either family members pouring into them or a church pouring into them or whatever it may be where God is using things in their life to draw them to him. But I like I said, I define that regeneration as as the moment of regeneration, the The the being born of the spirit in an instant, you know, being being called and being and having been drawn and now recognizing I'm a I'm a center in need of saving and that regeneration happens in an instant.

Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. Go ahead. Yeah.

That's that's good. And I think, being good, confessionally reformed, Christians here, one of the things that we look to as as we've talked about already is sola scriptura that's in in the background of what we believe. And so in light of that, I'm gonna read a text here. This is Matthew 13, I think, is a helpful sort of way to frame this dialogue, not just on the Arminian system, but really, I know we'll probably get into Roman Catholicism a little bit, but on the parable of the sower, and that's in Matthew 13. So I'll read here.

This is in the ESV. It says, that same day, starting verse 1, that same day, Jesus went out of the house and sat beside the sea, and a great and great crowds gathered about him so that he got into a boat and sat down, and the whole crowd stood on the beach. And he told them many things in parables saying a sower went out to sow, and he sowed some seeds or he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. Other seeds fell on rocky ground where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up since they had no depth of soil. But when the sun rose, they were scorched.

And since they had no root, they withered away. Other seeds fell among the thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grains, some a 100 fold, some 60, some 30. He who has ears to let him hear. So Jesus gives this parable.

And then, of course, the disciples rightly so are asking, okay. What was that all about? So then, Jesus goes on to say in verse 10, then the disciples came to him and said, why do you speak to them in parables? Verse 11, this is so helpful to to think about. Jesus said, to you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

For to one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who does not, even what he has will be taken away. And as Jesus goes on, he he quotes Isaiah here, but the distinction that we need to think about is when it comes to these seeds, right, we we understand, to Garrett's point, that the gospel message isn't necessarily received by some that hear it. Right? And that's the point Jesus is making here.

There was a story I've been working through Sproul's commentary on Matthew, actually, cover to cover and, mainly on audiobook because it's long. But, in that, he brings up a point where, he had said the night that he got saved, he brings up that story. And his college roommate also was at the same service, and they both professed Christ. Right? And so they they make a profession of faith.

And then what happens is Sproul talks about the next morning he woke up, and he still had this, you know, lightness. He he knew that he had been saved by grace. And then what's interesting is his college roommate that had responded in a similar fashion the night before the next morning, there was nothing to him. It just completely went away like that. And so when we think about Matthew 13, in light of something similar to that is that there will be people that joyfully will receive the gospel message, but it takes no root in their life.

And so, critiquing or maybe pushing back a little bit on our Arminian brothers is that it if it's up to us to maintain it, then the question we need to ask is whether in this case with Sproul's account or friends that we've had in a similar fashion that have professed faith and then fell away. Like, what anchors us? You know, there there's just more questions that open up in light of that, you know, if it's up to us. And and I think it's what the passage isn't saying there is it isn't saying that we are resisting faith necessarily, or not necessarily. We can't resist when God calls us forth.

You know, we see that in John 6. We alluded to that. But what we need to remember is that Jesus ultimately is the sower. Right? And he's the one that's planting that seed of faith within us.

So that's helpful to remember. Well, I I think back to the youth group I was in when I was a teenager. Mhmm. Every year, we would go to this big summer camp that was put on by the SBC. And, you know, I I don't have a whole lot of memories from, like, the theology of it or anything like that.

But, yeah, I just remember every year was so much fun. You know, you got to go to this huge resort, hang out with thousands of other teenagers, and and it was just a lot of fun. But I remember every night at the end of the night, you know, you'd have this big emotional lights down low, smoke, you know, all that the the the emotional, pandering almost. And and then at the end of the night on on your heartstrings? Yeah.

Yeah. And and then at the end of the night, you know, there'd be slow piano playing, and then they'd have an altar call. And I remember every year we went, there'd be 100 of kids come forward. And, you know, even just from our group in general, there'd be 4, 5, 6 kids every year go forward and, you know, say they're committing their lives to Jesus. They're ready to, you know, receive salvation.

And then we'd get home from camp. We'd see them in church that next Sunday, and then they would disappear Mhmm. And go back to, you know, their normal life. And I remember being a teenager wrestling with that, thinking, you know, why why is this? And I think what I had a misunderstanding of where I'm trying to go with this is I had a misunderstanding of god called them.

God gave them salvation, and then now they're turning their back on it. When I really look at it and realize I just had a misunderstanding of what was actually happening in that moment. Mhmm. They weren't actually being regenerated. They weren't actually, you know, confessing their sins, repenting of their sins, and fully trusting and believing in Christ.

What it was was a over, you know, manipulative, experience of this high, tense emotional state, and you've got these kids who, you know, we didn't sleep when we were there. We hung out. We talked. We played pranks on each other. So we're we're sleepy.

We're tired. We're it was it was a mess. You know? And at the end of the night, you you you pull on the heartstrings, and then it's like, well, do you wanna go to heaven or hell? Yeah.

And it's like, I'm not gonna answer that by saying I'm going I wanna go to hell. You know? And so I I had a misunderstanding of that, and I think that's really prevalent in, you know, kinda what we're talking about earlier, the the megachurch, the the, you know, the the Bethel Hillsongy churches, like Mhmm. Of oh, they were regenerated, and now they're they're turning from the faith. And Yeah.

Well, were they, though? Like, true regeneration cannot be resisted. Yeah. I I think, another good statement, just a quote from 2nd London is and and, again, we would just say to anybody listening that any good reformed confession worth their weight in salt is going to underpin each one of these statements in scripture. So it's not like we're just pulling these because we think it sounds good.

But, chapter 14 on saving faith and second one in paragraph 3 says that faith may exist in varying degrees so that it may either be either weak or strong, yet even in its weakest form, it is different. So here's a distinction. It is different in kind or nature like all other saving graces from faith and common grace of temporary believers. Therefore, faith may often be attacked and weakened, but it gains the victory. It matures in many to the point that they attain full assurance through Christ, who is both the founder and perfecter of our faith.

So there is a element of individuals having common grace extended to them where intellectually they may understand who Jesus is, and they have what's sometimes termed as temporary faith, but it's not like a saving faith. You know what I'm saying? And so we've experienced all of that in in our lives for sure. Friends of ours that have, quote, unquote, fallen or deconstructed from the faith. Yeah.

Yep. There's a lot to kind of unpack there Mhmm. What you what you both said. Because we're talking about, you know, can regeneration be resisted and can it be lost? I mean, those are really important questions, and I think that I think that is one thing that kinda makes reform theology, I think different than a lot of other systems within Christianity.

Well, going back to, Garrett's point about the setting up the right environment, and it's just this idea of conversion, I don't think can be, manipulated or forced, because this is why I think from my own perspective, it's like forced conversion throughout history has been done by Christian churches, done it in varying forms. Muslims have done it. And but, like, when people truly understand Christianity and understand who the Holy Spirit is, it's like, well, that's not what forced conversion means nothing to us, because it's not a true conversion. True true conversion happens when the Holy Spirit takes root and breathes life into that person, just like God did with Adam, you know, in creation. So there's definitely, you know, I think having that and just thinking about it puts it in puts it into perspective.

But there's a couple passages I kinda wanna touch on. So Augustine, I noticed in I've read quite a few of his works. I mean, quite a few is really small when it comes to the how much he really has when you really think about it. He's, like, hundreds of works. And, but I've noticed this trend.

He always goes back to this Philippians 2 13, and I do love it. Yeah. He's he talks about how it's for it is God who works in you both to will and to work for his good pleasure. So that's Philippians 2:13. And then and this is John 637.

All that the father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me, I will never cast out. In John 6, Jesus is specifically talking about those who come to him, and he's saying that all that the father does give me will come to me. It's not that they might come to him. It's not that think about it and maybe not. It's no.

They will come to him. There's, like, a certainty in in the statement he's making there. And then going off of can regeneration be lost. It's here in Romans 11 29, for the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable or without repentance since in some translations. Now this one really got me and is one I've kinda learned more recently and never put much thought into, but I read Saving the Reformation by Robert Godfrey, and in the Synod of Zor, it's a great book.

I was impressed. I I like Robert Godfrey. I've always liked them, and I've watched his videos, but I was highly impressed with his book. But in the Synod of Dort, they bring up, 1st Peter 123. Since you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but imperishable through the living and abiding word of God.

I mean, there's obviously a lot of other passages that that speak to this. John 1028, I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. Mhmm. So there's definitely a certainty that comes along with it, I believe. Yeah.

So if if you have any other comments before I move on to the next system, feel feel free to weigh in. Oh, we could keep going. Yeah. Let's keep cruising. Let's see what where this, unfolds, and we can, get to that last, section you wanted to talk about.

Sure. Obviously, gonna be touching on, Roman Catholic theology, but I think that, it's a little bit more of sacerdotal. Sacerdotal? Mhmm. Yeah.

I have trouble with that. I I sometimes just say sacerdotal and then sacerdotal, and I'm not sure which is correct because I've heard people say it both ways. It's sacerdotal. The reason I yeah. The reason I know that my wife is Bolivian, so we speak Spanish in our house or I I attempt to.

Our even our 5 year old daughter speaks Spanish. Does she? Okay. But, Sacerdote is, just a priest. And so, yeah, Sacerdotalism is, I would say, the correct pronunciation.

Okay. Yeah. But while we're admitting words we can't pronounce, I can't say eschatological. Eschatological. Esketel.

It's hard. So Well, I I figured while we're admitting those, I'll go ahead and put mine out there. Yeah. Yeah. It definitely elaborates or not elaborates, but expands your grammar when you start getting into theology because of the terms that theologians like to use.

And you know? But, let's see. So in discussing sacerdotalism and the way it's perceived is that, you know, I can definitely tell from both the Orthodox and Roman Catholic. It's a little bit more similar when it relates to, you know, John 3 is a really they put a lot of emphasis on being born of the water and the spirit and the water meaning in their mind, it means, baptism. Right.

And so I guess I'll start with BB Warfield and his discussion on sacerdotalism. So here are 2 different quotes from him. And I think he does a really good job. And I think it's important to kind of understand this. He says the chief means of grace are the sacraments.

They are the channels by which the spiritual gift is conveyed to our souls. The Christian sacraments, therefore, do not merely signify grace, they actually confer it. Hence, they are called effectual signs of grace. Their action is, from the work worked. Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation.

For a person can have no life who has not been born, this is called the necessities mita since baptism is is the means by which the supernatural life is given to the soul and the individual is incorporated into Christ. Without the help of the Eucharist, salvation would be so difficult to attain as to practical as to practically impossible. And then he go he goes on to say, in the second place, sacerdotalism, deals with God, the Holy Spirit, the source of all grace, in neglect of his of his personality, as if he were a natural force operating not when and where and how he pleases, but uniformly and regularly wherever his activities are released. It speaks of the church as the institute of salvation, or even as the storehouse of salvation, with apparently complete unconsciousness that, thus, it is speaking of salvation as something which may be accumulated or stored for use as it may be needed. The conception is not an essentially different from that of storing electricity, say, in a Leyden jar, once it can be drawn upon for use or even later use.

Yeah. So go ahead. Did you have something to No. Go ahead. Go ahead, brother.

Set it up. I think his analysis of that is very is very is very fascinating to think about because here you have you're dealing with the Holy Spirit. And like he said, you know, basically, it's it's no different than the conception of having the Holy Spirit kind of stored up or salvation stored up, and the church releases him where they want to release him. Now I think that this poses some interesting questions, because, one, if in John 3 where Jesus is talking to Nicodemus, and he's saying the spirit blows where it wishes, you do not see where it's coming from or where it's going. So it is with everyone who's born of the spirit.

If being born of the spirit is equivalent to regeneration, and I think it is, then in more of a sacerdotal system, you might not necessarily see where it's coming from, but you do see where it's going. It's going into the infant you're baptizing. Yeah. And so it's that's an interesting dynamic to present, as well as there's a couple of passages I kinda wanted to bring up because from my understanding with regeneration and getting the new birth and the holy spirit breathing life into the person, if having the holy spirit is kind of equivalent idea of that or the first beginnings of having the holy spirit. And this is, Peter in Acts 1047.

He says, can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? So here you have an instance that the Holy Spirit was given without baptism. And then also to you have the, in acts as well, the case of Simon Magus, who was a magician. And that's actually where we get the term simony, little tidbit I learned from RC Sproul, actually. And, so in Acts 818 through 20, it says now when Simon saw the spirit that this I'm sorry.

When Simon saw that the spirit was given through the laying on of the apostle's hands, he offered them money saying, give me this power also so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit. But Peter said to him, may your silver perish with you because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money. And so here you had Simon Magus, who was baptized, but did not receive the Holy Spirit. So that so you see situations where it's not just a super rare occasion, but the receiving of holy spirit being given at various times throughout, you know, before baptism, after baptism. And, you know, I'd be really curious to hear your guys' perspective, just on that.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot of lot of stuff to unpack there. I would say that there's gonna be similarities that you hear in our language, but one of the distinctions as Baptist, because, you know, we're we're presenting our view, is that we believe in or are convinced of by the scriptures' regenerate church membership. So when we accept someone into membership as a Baptist, specifically reformed Baptists, We believe that, obviously, a profession of faith is there, and and we were hesitant to use terms, I think, like the, the sacraments, especially maybe it's an allergy we just have as Baptist, but we like to say the ordinances of of baptism and Lord's supper.

And so, again, we're convinced from the scriptures that, of course, regeneration precedes faith. But in terms of baptism to be received as baptists, we would say that from the scriptures that, again, church membership is regenerate, so profession of faith is going to warrant, being put forth before we would baptize someone or accept them into membership. And so where we might say that we make that appeal is you know, because I I understand the Presbyterian view specifically or or other denominations that hold to that, you know, allowing, pedobaptism. They would appeal that, you know, there are scriptures that say, you know, he and his whole household were were baptized. Right?

I understand that argument. But I would also point to the thief on the cross as a great example where we see someone that Jesus conferred, you know, regeneration and then saying, today, you'll be with me in paradise. He didn't have the opportunity to be baptized. But I think a good passage to look at and this was helpful for me, you know, probably a year ago, I was looking at at this and studying through it. And, in first Peter you brought up first Peter.

I think chapter 3 verses 21 and 22 are very good on the subject. I think the rendering from the new King James specifically is is very helpful. You can deduce this idea, of course, with other, like, new American standard and and ESV, but it words it in a more, I would say, sort of nebulous way. New King James renders it really well. It says, there is also an antitype, which now saves us.

Baptism, not the removal of filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to him. And that phrase, antitype, which is not seen in those other translations, I think is very good. Again, it's it's in New King James. I think King James has it as well. But the anti type Merriam Webster defines that as something that corresponds or foreshadows in in a type.

And so in a covenantal framework, when we think about shadows and substance, baptism in 16/89, federalism is an ordinance and a symbol of something that is demonstrating, faith. And so we don't believe that it confers grace on the heart in the sense that, like the Roman Catholic system. And we wanna be careful to make that distinction. Presbyterians aren't saying that grace is entering the heart there. They would acknowledge it's it's a a covenantal sign.

But as Baptist, because we do believe in, church membership that's regenerate, we believe that the profession of faith must, precede that baptism. So I don't know if that answers your question, but that's just kinda how we look at it, I would say. Is that fair, Garrett? Yes. Ditto.

Diddin. I was not I I was gonna say that I don't think he could agree with you. I don't think he could agree with you more. That that old yes. Yeah.

I, you know, it's funny you said the Sacramento is kind of a word we have an allergy to, but even the phrase sign and seal Mhmm. Some particular Baptists are willing to say that. I think Hercules Collins was able to was willing to say that. I think I'm willing to say it, but I have to kinda nuance it, so I don't say it. But even just looking at, you know, what the original question is, like, how does baptism relate to regeneration, I think we're my short answer would be, it it minimally.

And what I mean by that is, I think the example of the thief on the cross is a is a a good example. It's that's not like the linchpin of why I believe this, but it's a good example of, we see today I'll see you in paradise, and, it really didn't have a huge claim on his regeneration. Like, do I think a regenerate person ought to seek baptism from a baptist standpoint? Yes. I do.

You know, should someone who's convinced of pedo baptism, as a believer, seek to baptize their children? Yes. They should. But to to make a claim that baptism is a true, necessity salvifically or when it comes to regeneration, I I think that's where you start getting in the the unbiblical waters. I like what you did there, inserting the waters.

Oh, totally intentional. Yeah. Yeah. Because from my understanding, there's definitely, a connection between the sign and the thing signified. I think that that's where it gets tricky because it's like we can say that baptism save saves us or, you know, as scripture says, baptism now saves you.

But we believe that the outward baptism is pointing to an inward baptism by the holy spirit. It was when Jesus is, talking to the Pharisees, I believe, he talks about how it actually might be when he's given the 7 woes, but he says, first, clean the inside of the cup and dish. That way, the outside may be clean also. So if that is discussing, renewal and regeneration in a sense, I think that I mean, that makes sense to me, because it's like, well, we can wash ourselves on the outside, but that doesn't mean the inside is gonna be clean. That's the Holy Spirit's work in our souls and in recreation, regeneration.

Thank you guys for taking the time to come on with me today. I knew it was gonna be long once I, combined our notes, but I didn't wanna leave anything out because I felt that it's all relevant to go over, and I I wanted to hopefully do it in a logical and coherent way. Mhmm. Wanna thank our listeners as well as taking the time to to just check out this episode. And, you know, if you would like to please check out, Garrett and Bobby at statereform.com.

You can also check them out on Spotify, YouTube as well. And then I also have a website at the restless theologian.com. So that's gonna be the longest thing that you would type in. So you might be better just to Google it. But, I think that's what I did when I looked you up.

Yeah. Oh, one of the things I wanted to bring up was just, having listened to your 5 episodes on, the 5 points of Calvinism, I really enjoyed. And what I do really like about you guys too is that you take your time in discussing, the information where I feel like I have a habit of going really fast and going through it really quickly. And I don't in, so I think that I don't know if it's because I have a lot to say or if it's more of nerves, you know? But, but, yeah, I really appreciate you guys and what you do, and, definitely looking forward to having you on again.

Absolutely. Let's do it. Yeah. Let's let's set it up. Awesome.

God bless you, brother. Yep. You too.