The Keys of the Kingdom

Season 2 Episode 7 Summary

Special Guest: Cory Reckner

In this thought-provoking episode of the Restless Theologian podcast, host Zechariah Eshack invites Cory Reckner to explore Peter's pivotal role in early Christianity and the foundational concepts of church authority. Cory Reckner's journey is one marked by a diverse array of denominational influences and a profound spiritual awakening at 21, ignited during his academic pursuits at the Moody Bible Institute. This episode promises a captivating exploration of early Christian teachings, offering deep insights into the theological debates that have shaped Christianity.

Listeners are encouraged to challenge conventional interpretations of historical religious doctrines as the episode delves into the concepts of presentism, anachronism, and doctrinal retrojection. The theological debate surrounding Peter's role and the notion of papal primacy is scrutinized, with references to early church fathers providing fresh perspectives. The complex narratives of Mount Hermon and Caesarea Philippi are explored, revealing connections to demonic lore and the symbolic "gates of Hades." These discussions enrich our understanding of foundational Christian beliefs and invite listeners to engage further with the Restless Theologian's resources for a more profound grasp of these enduring theological themes.

The episode begins with Cory sharing his personal and spiritual background, highlighting his exposure to different Christian denominations and his recommitment to Christ at 21, significantly influenced by his father. His educational journey in biblical studies at Moody Bible Institute, where he earned both an associate's and a bachelor's degree, is discussed. The significance of the Sermon on the Mount in his spiritual awakening and his continued independent study of scripture is touched upon, setting the stage for the episode's main topic with a passage from Matthew 16.

The exploration of historical errors in church beliefs focuses on the impact of presentism on interpreting religious doctrines, particularly within Roman Catholic apologetics. The episode highlights the importance of understanding historical religious texts within their original contexts, avoiding the projection of later theological developments onto earlier periods. Cory and Zechariah discuss the belief in Petrine succession and supremacy, examining the linguistic and historical context of Matthew 16.

The debate surrounding Peter's papal primacy is examined, with insights into early church fathers' views on the primacy of confession over honor and belief over rank. The significance of Peter's confession of faith is considered as potentially the "rock" rather than Peter himself. The discussion delves into the context of Jesus's declaration at Caesarea Philippi and the geographical and historical significance of Mount Hermon, linking these insights to broader theological discussions.

The intriguing intersections of biblical history, folklore, and religious concepts surrounding Mount Hermon and Caesarea Philippi are explored, examining the biblical significance of Mount Hermon and its connection to demonic lore. The conversation shifts to Caesarea Philippi, known for a cave thought to be a gateway to the underworld, drawing parallels to stories like that of Saint Patrick and purgatory. The pivotal biblical moment when Jesus asks his disciples who they believe he is, leading to Peter's declaration of faith, is analyzed, discussing its implications for Peter's role and the broader community of disciples.

The concept of the church as the body of Christ and its spiritual foundation is discussed, referencing early church teachings and figures like Irenaeus and Ignatius of Antioch. Peter's confession of faith is seen as a pivotal moment in Christianity, with believers considered spiritual stones in the church's structure. The discussion transitions to the keys of the kingdom, underscoring the significance of foundational beliefs without downplaying figures like Peter and Mary.

The historical and theological nuances surrounding the "keys of the kingdom" are explored, examining translation differences between Greek and Latin terms and their impact on the development of practices like indulgences. The conversation considers how the authority to bind and loose might apply to all disciples, touching on the symbolic interpretation of keys as access to divine knowledge and the church's responsibility to evangelize.

Finally, the discussion of Peter's primacy within the Christian tradition examines the idea of Peter's role as "first among equals" and his primacy of honor rather than jurisdiction. The complex interplay between biblical interpretation, historical church views, and theological perspectives is highlighted, offering a nuanced understanding of Protestant and Catholic understandings of church authority. This episode of the Restless Theologian podcast invites listeners to engage deeply with these enduring theological themes, promising more thought-provoking content in the future.

• Season 2 Episode 7 Transcript

  Zechariah Eshack: 0:00

  Welcome to the Restless Theologian podcast, where we focus on having insightful conversations in biblical history and theology. I'm your host, Zechariah Eshack, For our seventh and final episode of season two. I'm excited to have Cory Reckner back on with us. How are you doing, Cory?

  Cory Reckner: 0:26

  Zech, I'm good. How are you?

  Zechariah Eshack: 0:28

  Good, good. How was your Thanksgiving?

  Cory Reckner: 0:30

  It was nice. I got together with the family and did family Thanksgiving stuff, ate food, hung out with people, socialized. It was a good time Awesome.

  Zechariah Eshack: 0:40

  Yeah, I love Thanksgiving food. It's got to be my favorite. So I thought what we could start off with is maybe if you could tell us a little bit about your background and I know that you have a degree, I believe it's, in biblical studies Can you tell our listeners a little bit about that?

  Cory Reckner: 0:56

  Yeah, I really recommitted my life to Christ when I was about I was 21. And my dad was a big part of that. I'd really, you know, for years and years and years I was pretty much raised, you know, kind of interdenominationally like across a couple of different denominations.

  Cory Reckner: 1:19

  My dad and my mom were divorced and my dad would take me with him to all kinds of different church services growing up, because my dad was kind of a church hopper a little bit just him, right, cause he wasn't, you know, um married anybody when he would take me to all these different church services. So he brought me up in both the Baptist church, the Methodist church, um, and a few charismatic churches as well. So by the time I pretty much got into high school I kind of just fell away from all types of religion and, you know, not really belief in God. I always kind of believed God was there and Jesus. I never really like separated myself from Christ, right. I just kind of said like it's just not really for me right now, right, because I was young and wanted to be crazy and I was kind of stupid.

  Cory Reckner: 2:07

  So I did a bunch of dumb things and then by the time I reached about 21 years old, my dad and I really reconnected in my life and it was a really awesome time relationally for both of us and so he helped lead me back to the Lord and then we got really immersed into doing Bible studies and to praying all the time, and the more that I got into the scriptures, the more I just fell in love with the scriptures and I was just felt that spiritual peace when I read them.

  Cory Reckner: 2:38

  The first and most powerful portion of scripture that really like and most powerful portion of scripture that really like, like you know, got pierced into my heart was the Sermon on the Mount. I remember reading that and it was like I'd never experienced anything like that before in my life when my dad and I read through that and I kid you not, it was like at that point in time that I really just fell in love, not only with Christ and his words, but with with scripture in general. Right, right. So to sum everything up, my dad and I did all these Bible studies. For a while. My dad was actually doing some distance learning classes from Moody Bible Institute in Cuyahoga Falls, ohio.

  Cory Reckner: 3:17

  Oh nice, yeah, and they were actual in-person classes and my dad at the time I wasn't going to school, I'd gone to University of Akron for a little bit and was hoping to study psychology and maybe some musical studies like jazz or something because I play drums but just didn't pan out and I just never really felt super confident about continuing school there. And my dad at the time was doing some moody distance learning classes and he told me he's like well, you know, you can enroll for these classes. They teach you biblical things. Well, you know, you can enroll for these classes, they teach you biblical things and you know, you're already getting into the Bible now. So I got really interested and I got involved with that and I started doing a few in-person Moody distance learning classes in Cuyahoga Falls.

  Cory Reckner: 3:55

  Well, they took away the program for distance learning in person but they offered it online. So from there on out I literally I just did Moody's distance learning online classes, eventually got an associates in biblical studies and then a bachelor of science in biblical studies through Moody Bible Institute and then after that, like I said, everything else has been pretty, yeah, pretty independent oriented with my studying and since then I've just really gotten into all kinds of different subject matter and everything. But we definitely spent a lot of time getting into the scriptures and formed a lot of critical opinions about things in the Bible. So it was a really good time and really instrumental for me moving forward. So I'd say I'm not like a super biblical scholar, but I've got a little biblical scholarship under my belt.

  Zechariah Eshack: 4:46

  So yeah, okay, yeah, that's great, that's awesome. Is Moody Bible Institute still around? They are, yeah.

  Cory Reckner: 4:53

  Okay, yeah, they're still pretty popular too. From what I have last heard about them. They have their own radio show. It's national. They have like a Cleveland branch national. They have like a Cleveland branch which runs a Moody broadcast as well. But Moody Church in Chicago, that's where the institutes ran out of. That's a pretty I don't want to say successful, but it's like a pretty populated church overall. To a lot of very conservative biblical scholars came out of Moody Bible Institute that are still around. It's still pretty. Yeah, I think, pretty normal still. They're pretty popular still Nice.

  Zechariah Eshack: 5:29

  Yeah, that's awesome. I want to say that it was probably I don't know if it was the Bible. Answer man. Do you remember that growing up? I can't remember if that was a part of the Moody Bible Institute or not?

  Cory Reckner: 5:42

  Maybe. Yeah, it sounds somewhat familiar.

  Zechariah Eshack: 5:44

  Yeah, yeah, I'll have to look into that. Okay, so I wanted to start off today's episode with quoting what we're going to dissect today. So it's going to be the passage in Matthew and it's the famous or infamous, whichever way you want to look at it text. So Matthew 16, verses 18 through 19, is what we're going to be primarily focused on. So if you could read that, for us that'd be great.

  Cory Reckner: 6:11

  Sure. So Matthew 16, 18, and I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church. Okay, so we're going to unpack that.

  Zechariah Eshack: 6:42

  So I want to focus on both, primarily verses 18 and 19. We're going to discuss what the rock is, what the church is and what the keys are. I also want to dive in a little bit into what I think is possibly well, what obviously I think is an error. It's more of a historical error, but in regards to the chair of Peter, and so it's a form of presentism. So presentism is a little bit more of, like, you know, we had that huge wave of people that were, you know, destroying statues and stuff like that. Well, it's a little bit more of judging historical, you know, events and people based upon present day reality and so.

  Zechariah Eshack: 7:26

  But anachronism is a little bit different. So this is from William Webster's dictionary it's an error of chronology, a chronological misplacing of person's, events, objects or customs in regard to each other. Or, you know, or even more precise term I think that could apply is doctrinal retrojection, which refers to projecting a later developed theological concept back onto an earlier time period. I tend to notice that Roman Catholic apologists kind of do this, and while I think that Catholic, orthodox and Protestant historians, as opposed to the apologists, are just far more objective and honest in their assessments of the data that they come through, you know, like just the historical time frame and the context of the terms being used. So that's just something I personally have found. I don't know how you feel about that. Is that something that you would say is fair?

  Cory Reckner: 8:25

  Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent, yeah, yeah. I think the key is always to, you know, call history history and, like you said, with the present, the present right, we can use history to kind of shape our present experience. But I don't think we need to, like you know, blend them so much to the point where it's like what was historical is just as true today. You know what I mean, where it gets complicated, yeah, right.

  Zechariah Eshack: 8:53

  Right. So I wanted to give some examples of this. Uh, real quick, and this isn't to buy by any means. Obviously, in these conversations you know this episode and the episodes going forward, um, we're going to have disagreements, we're going to defend our positions, but you know, I think it's important to do that with charity towards the Orthodox, the Roman Catholic. You know that disagree with our Protestant viewpoints. Wanted to give some examples and the examples would be I think that the eucharist, for one, I feel like from reading catholic apologists, I think that a lot of modern roman catholic perspective on the early church fathers usually is perceived that it always means the same exact thing as the doctrine of transubstantiation.

  Zechariah Eshack: 9:39

  You know, when that form of like aristotelian distinction between substances and accidents, um, um, is far too readily assumed, which is a later development, when it's clear from reading of the church fathers, once you dive deeper into it, you realize that it's not as simplistic as it's portrayed. Um, for example, like there are varying degrees of metabolic, metaphorical and symbolic views being represented. You know whether it's the physical, actual eating of Christ's body and drinking of his literal blood, and you do tend to find a little bit of differences. You know, like Justin Martyr, I think held to more of almost a Lutheran interpretation of it. And then Clement of Alexandria, definitely metaphorical, like when you read it it's, you know, very high emphasis on metaphor. So the other term I wanted to bring up is I just want our listeners to actually take these terms into account and put them in the back of their mind as they're going through this whole conversation. So another term is terminological anachronism, such as the reading of the term Catholic. I tend to find that, and it's really easy to do, but I tend to find that some Roman Catholics may, when they hear the term Catholic, their mind goes to Roman Catholic. It's one and only and true meaning.

  Zechariah Eshack: 11:06

  As further I started to learn a little bit more history and different backgrounds. Even the gentleman I had on recently, you know he's, I believe he's Byzantine Catholic. So it's like you have, they're not Roman Catholic, but he's Byzantine Catholic, and then Armenian Catholics they're, which I believe are all in communion with the sea of Rome, catholics which I believe are all in communion with the Sea of Rome. But I know that there's Protestant confessions of faith that discuss our Catholic belief and they'll use the term Catholic from the Nicene Creed, the Apostles' Creed, I think it's in the Apostles' Creed, I know it's in the Nicene Creed.

  Zechariah Eshack: 11:47

  So, basically, what I want to do is I want to elaborate, um on the belief in petrine succession and supremacy. We're, um, we're going to discuss matthew 16 and then. So, with this passage in particular, obviously it's been vigorously debated and there's a distinction between there. There appears at least to be a distinction that Jesus Christ makes calling Peter Petros, or small stone in the Greek, and then rock Petra, on which the church will be built. Now some argue from what I've looked up, is that some will argue that the book of Matthew was actually originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic, because they automatically assume that you know, that's the language that was spoken, so that's the language it was written in. I feel like a lot of times, people in that time frame were multilingual.

  Zechariah Eshack: 12:37

  You know, Greek was a common language that was spoken Aramaic as well.

  Cory Reckner: 12:41

  The Roman Empire yeah, controlled you, controlled Judea, and yeah, so it's like Greek would have been very common of a language for most people to speak as well Not everybody, of course, but a lot of people, right.

  Zechariah Eshack: 12:54

  Yeah, you would almost have to if they're the people ruling over you. Right, I mean usually the people ruling over you don't subject themselves to your language. They make you learn theirs.

  Cory Reckner: 13:04

  Yeah, exactly.

  Zechariah Eshack: 13:06

  I mean, it's kind of what I what I think usually happens, yeah, but obviously some have argued that the original context or manuscript was should have been written in or was written in aramaic, and in aramaic I think the term rock would just be kefas or kefa um, but basically I think that it would have been one and the same for both rock and for Peter. The same term is the argument. Now what we're going to do is we're going to go through the early church fathers and kind of discuss their views on who the rock is in Matthew 16. What I tend to notice is that if you're Roman Catholic or you're Protestant, you want to look up a position that supports your view, you are going to find it. I mean, that's the really convenient thing about it. I mean that's the frustrating thing. I think right, have you ever had that experience where it's like you want to find evidence, or maybe you know whether it's like you want. You want to find evidence, or maybe you know whether it's modern theologians or early church fathers that support your position?

  Zechariah Eshack: 14:10

  uh-huh but then you think you found a lot of evidence for it and then you come up with other stuff that maybe undercuts your position yeah to the contrary yeah yeah oh yeah, happens all the time yeah I think it's funny because nowadays we have algorithms, you know, for internet searches.

  Cory Reckner: 14:25

  So yeah you could find a million things that just continue to support your view of something, but if you want to branch out, you can always look up alternatives, and then you'll start getting flooded with a feed of alternative perspectives as well.

  Zechariah Eshack: 14:38

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, no kidding, and it and it all also too, like I think I tend to notice with Google, with some of your searches, I tend to find it's how you ask can depend too on what the answer you're given.

  Cory Reckner: 14:54

  So true.

  Zechariah Eshack: 14:55

  So I've gotten contradictory answers on things, just depending upon how I ask it. Yeah, so I'm going to knock through all of these early church father quotes and then we're going to discuss it. So this is going to be origin um, for he says for upon this rock, that is, upon the faith of his confession, the church is built. It is not that the rock is Peter, but the faith which he confessed. You have Johnostom. I have a couple of quotes from him as well. When he says upon this rock, I will build my church, meaning Christ, he speaks of himself, for he is the rock. It was not Peter who was the rock, but the faith of Peter in confessing Christ as the son of the living God. His other quote is for he did not say upon you I will build my church, but upon the rock which you have confessed, that is, upon the faith of your confession. And then we have St Augustine, for that rock was not Peter, but the faith that Peter confessed, which is the truth. And this is a very what I found to be a fascinating side, uh, so a lot of this, a lot of this information I've taken from William Webster William Webster I found is super helpful on this conversation. I feel like he's one of those people that you know. I have a couple of books by him and I feel like he has a lot of insight into this particular doctrine or category.

  Zechariah Eshack: 16:25

  So when William Webster discusses Augustine's work on the retractions, he says Augustine corrects his previous statement about Matthew 16, 18, and states that he more strongly believes that the rock in the passage is either Christ or Peter's confession of faith, which refers to Christ and then makes the following statement but let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable.

  Zechariah Eshack: 16:50

  Considering this text is the foundation to the idea of Petrine primacy, it seems rather odd that if this was a longstanding conviction in the church, that Augustine would leave it up to the reader. I have noticed this with him, where if he comes across a very complex passage, he'll either do one or two things. He'll either say I'll leave it up to the reader to decide if there's more than one possible interpretation as to which is the more probable, or he might say something along the lines of you know, this is very interesting to think about. I'm going to have to do further study, you know, to basically make my assessment of what's being said. So not only is he very humble, but I feel like he's also very judicious in how he approaches the text yeah, so.

  Zechariah Eshack: 17:42

  And then this is Augustine as well. He says in Peter or Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people they drank from the spiritual rock that was following them, but the rock was Christ. So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ. Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his church not on a man, but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? You are the Christ, the son of the living God. There's the rock for you, there's the foundation. There's where the church has been built, which the son of the living God, there's the rock for you, there's the foundation. There's where the church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer.

  Zechariah Eshack: 18:32

  And to elaborate on his quote here, I wanted to briefly touch on 1 Corinthians, 10, 4, which Augustine is referencing, so when he talks about the spiritual rock that that was drunk from. So this is in Numbers 20, 10 through 11, and it's all about the story of Moses. But he says in the Israelites. So this is Numbers 20, 10 through 11. Then Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock and he said to them and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock and he said to them here now, you rebels, shall we bring water for you out of this rock? And Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock and his staff twice and water came out abundantly and the congregation drank and their livestock.

  Zechariah Eshack: 19:19

  I thought that that was really cool, because even in that story mean, it's been a while since I've read it, but basically, from my recollection, or what I think, is that I think the Israelites were murmuring and you know because they were whether or not they were typically murmuring about lack of food or lack of water, and then so that's when Moses gets angry and he strikes that rock and water comes forth from it, and I think that that is a little bit of foreshadowing there of you know Christ and obviously us spiritually drinking from him.

  Cory Reckner: 19:53

  Absolutely yeah. It's like Old Testament parallelism. Yeah, to the scene that yeah is happening with Jesus and the disciples.

  Zechariah Eshack: 20:00

  Yeah, and then the last one I want to touch on for this category is St Ambrose, which he was the one who taught Augustine. He then, who before was silent, to teach us that we ought not to repeat the words of the impious. This one I say when he heard but who do you say? I am am Immediately not unmindful of his station exercise his primacy, that is, the primacy of confession, not of honor, the primacy of belief, not of rank. This, then, is Peter, who has replied for the rest of the apostles, rather before the rest of men, and so he is called the foundation, because he knows how to preserve not only his own but the common foundation. Faith, then, is the foundation of the church, for it was not said of Peter's flesh but of his faith that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, but his confession of faith conquered hell, and this confession did not shut out one heresy, for since the church, like a good ship, is often buffeted by many waves, the foundation of the church should prevail against all heresies.

  Zechariah Eshack: 21:09

  So I even think that, with Ambrose here, when he says that it's a primacy of confession, not of honor, the primacy of belief, not of rank, I mean, I think that he even seems to go further.

  Zechariah Eshack: 21:31

  Go further, I mean, in my opinion, disproving Petring supremacy, meaning from my understanding that very early on that Peter was kind of referenced as the first among equals, in that he also too, I think, had a primacy of honor, not a jurisdiction. So it's like here you have an Ambrose saying it's not even a primacy of honor but just the primacy of confession. So I mean, I don't think I personally would even go that far. I would say that he does have a primacy of honor, at least later on. I feel like it was maybe since it was believed that Peter went to Rome and that Rome had held a special position, because it was one of the first places where, you know, the early church really took off. And I think it had a lot to do with persecution, because persecution tends to be, for whatever reason, ends up having the opposite effect of what the persecutors are intending Right right.

  Cory Reckner: 22:24

  And how that works with God's people.

  Zechariah Eshack: 22:26

  Yeah, so I wanted to. I mean, after reading all of those early church father quotes and I felt like that they were very insightful and I actually really did have to narrow down just because of the abundance of quotations and sightings from the early church fathers, that kind of support, this view that the rock that's being discussed in Matthew 16 is not necessarily Peter himself but either Christ or Peter's confession of faith. So I was interested to get into your insight into that.

  Cory Reckner: 22:59

  Yeah, Well, so, after kind of reviewing the context of the situation and the scene where this is happening, I kind of tend to lean towards a little bit of both of those perspectives. Right, the debate that you were bringing up is this idea of Peter's. What is it? Papal primacy right, patrine primacy, where he was considered the first pope right According to Roman Catholics, maybe a lot of other Catholic branches as well. Yeah. Because of this passage in Jesus saying Peter and then you're the rock, right.

  Zechariah Eshack: 23:49

  Yeah Well, he says upon this rock, Right, and he doesn't say upon you, Right, right. Yeah Well, he says upon this rock and he doesn't say upon you, which I think is a distinction that the early church fathers are making there.

  Cory Reckner: 23:59

  Yeah, but the conclusion that has been made is that Peter was who Jesus was calling the rock right. That's what people have thought for countless ages now that.

  Cory Reckner: 24:11

  Jesus was saying yeah, you're, you're the first Pope or you're the first actual like papal leader in you know, my church, right? So I think what needs to be debated is what Jesus, in the context of the scene, was actually saying and like what he was referring to specifically, right, because that's where I think this whole debacle has has been tied up for years and years and years. Um, cause, you know, first Jesus, and I was going to see if you were okay if we kind of not like got off the trails a little bit but just kind of explore just the scene that was going on there, just a little briefly there.

  Zechariah Eshack: 24:53

  Yeah, for sure.

  Cory Reckner: 24:54

  So I was going over the passage last night and this is happening at Caesarea, philippi, okay, where Jesus asks the disciples who do people say that I am? And they're like. Oh, some say you're like Elijah, some say you're John the Baptist raised from the dead, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and he's like but who do you say that I am right, right Now? What's interesting is that, if you dig into the interpretation of that passage, jesus is asking this question to all of the disciples. He's not just asking to Peter, but Peter answers first.

  Cory Reckner: 25:31

  He was the first one to answer right, yeah, and he's the one that said you are the Messiah and from what I remember reading, it was the first statement of Jesus's Messiahship, his messianic fulfillment, like actually being the Jewish Messiah in scriptures. And it's funny you brought up Matthew, because Matthew, like you said it, was likely written in Hebrew or Aramaic.

  Zechariah Eshack: 25:54

  That's what's proposed. Okay, I don't think it's unreasonable to think that it was written in Greek.

  Cory Reckner: 26:00

  Sure sure.

  Zechariah Eshack: 26:02

  Just because that's the only proof. I mean, from what I've researched, that's the only proof that we have or the earliest known documentation was in Greek, right right. So I don't think it's far-fetched in that world to suppose that he did write it in Greek. It's very plausible. Was Matthew, I'm trying to remember? Was Matthew a Jew?

  Cory Reckner: 26:23

  He was, yeah, supposedly. Yeah, was he the tax collector? He was the tax collector. Yeah, okay, that's right. Yeah, and there were a lot of, uh, different scholars that said that his audience was going to be primarily jewish as well, like the gospel of matthew from the genealogies to a lot of the messianic fulfillments of christ were actually directed towards more of a jewish audience, right right so what's interesting about that is Jesus is with his disciples, they go to Caesarea Philippi and Mount Hermon is in Caesarea Philippi.

  Cory Reckner: 27:01

  Now, what's crazy about all of those facts being put together is that Mount Hermon, according to the extra biblical book of Enoch to the book, the extra biblical book of Enoch was supposedly where the watchers, or the fallen angels, had descended from heaven to declare that they were going to start impregnating women or create, you know more, more sons of God, right?

  Zechariah Eshack: 27:23

  Really Okay. Okay, I have heard Mount Hermon referenced a little bit and it was actually because I started listening to um podcasts called blurry creatures.

  Zechariah Eshack: 27:32

  I don't know if you've heard of it but basically they talk about the nephilim and they, they talk about a lot of you know, they talk, they talk about the book of enoch. I actually think that they had a um translation that they helped on or at least funded. I'm not entirely 100 sure, but um, you know, I, I, I like their podcast and obviously I'm going to be biased, but I'm a little bit more of, they have a little bit more of people that are on there that are um, just a wide variety of people it's like I'm not much into bigfoot or ufos okay, but but I mean a little bit yeah it's a little bit too.

  Zechariah Eshack: 28:08

  I mean I, I like. I mean I shouldn't say I like, but I mean I engage in a little bit of conspiracy oh sure, I think all of us do yeah yeah yeah, yeah keeps life interesting, yeah but I mean, I think, when it comes to the nephilim, uh, I listened to a few of their episodes about it okay, but it's funny that you mentioned mount herman, because they'll have t-shirts and stuff that say right, right right.

  Cory Reckner: 28:27

  Well, so in Mount Hermon? I mean, that's another topic for another time but, that mountain alone. There's a lot of biblical history with that mountain right, especially relating to the fallen angels, you know, which a lot of people believe are demons. Right, the book of enoch, the extra biblical book, uh, enoch. There's a lot of reference uh in the bible to that book right, like, uh, the letters of peter, which is funny, we're talking about peter right um, so there's a lot of reference to all these things going on.

  Cory Reckner: 29:00

  well, anyway. So in cesarea philippi, cesarea philippi, um, there was a. There was a cave in cesarea ph Philippi which was known to Gentiles and a lot of people that were pagan to have been a gateway to the underworld, to Hades. Okay, really, yeah, yeah, it's funny that you mentioned that.

  Zechariah Eshack: 29:25

  I actually was planning on having another episode and I was with Katie and it was going to be about purgatory.

  Zechariah Eshack: 29:31

  Oh cool, and one of the things that's interesting that you mentioned is that about the cave that leads into the underworld is because, um so, saint patrick, there's no evidence that he actually believed in the concept of purgatory, um, but there was an older work I think it was maybe in the 11th century that came out and it was basically I don't know if it was a um biography about saint patrick and his um, uh, you know his time in ireland, but basically the irish were stubborn and that saint patrick wanted to convert them but was having trouble. So what happened was he prayed to God and then God showed him this cave, and the cave was to another world, where it was actually purgatory.

  Zechariah Eshack: 30:21

  People were suffering in purgatory. Yeah. And then. So he basically took people there and they were terrified by what they saw, and then you know, that's how he converted them. You know a little bit of fear tactics there, but kind of a little bit same kind of concept. You know this cave that leads into another world or the underworld.

  Cory Reckner: 30:42

  Yeah, but continue. I'm sorry. No, that's great. Well, it's interesting because I think that the idea of like a gate to the underworld, yeah. I mean, look at popular culture and modern lore. Even a lot of people love to still like cater to this kind of Ooh. What's a gateway right? To maybe the demonic realm, or like the underworld realm, or whatever Right there's. There's this concept of like a gateway, you know. Yeah.

  Cory Reckner: 31:05

  And in Caesarea Philippi gates were a very well-known and normal concept for people in Caesarea Philippi, okay, and it was very Gentile, dominated, right. So this scene is happening, where Jesus is with his disciples and he's like who do people say, I am right, while they're in Caesarea Philippi right, ironically, near Mount Hermon, where these fallen angels had supposedly, you know, landed and started trying to take over, yeah, and they're like well, you know all these prophecies and you know the disciples are saying this right, there are these prophecies and people think that you're John the Baptist that's raised from the dead already and all this stuff. Right, they're just throwing stuff at Jesus. They're like that is what people think about you right now. And Jesus is like yeah, but what do you say? Like who do you say? All of you guys? What do you guys think about me right now?

  Cory Reckner: 31:59

  And then Peter's like boom, I think you're the Messiah, I think you're the one that was promised to Israel to save our people, right, jesus's answer is like, totally related to the scene there, and what he's doing is he's responding back. He's like not only are you right, peter, you gave me the best commendation you could have, but let me give you a commendation right afterwards, because you said that right, he's like you are going to be the rock right upon which I build my church. Right Now, like we talked about and all the forefathers had mentioned, there's debate as to what Jesus was actually referring to in this statement.

  Cory Reckner: 32:44

  Is he saying because of your faith, the church is going to be built upon that, right? Or is it just because it's you, peter, you're the rock that I'm going to build my church on? Or is it the disciples that Jesus says this to, right, supposedly, when he addresses Peter, it's like you said Petros, right, but the disciples? It's almost like a feminine version of what he's saying with Petros by saying Petra. So Petra could be almost considered more of like a stone rather than just a rock, right? So there's a lot of inclusive stuff happening here with these really perplexing statements that Jesus is making. But Jesus mentions the gates of Hades won't prevail against you. I'm going to give you keys to the kingdom. Upon this rock I'll build my church.

  Cory Reckner: 33:32

  So Jesus is saying all of this really heavy stuff to all the disciples, right? And I think what's important to remember, especially with this debate of Petrine primacy and Peter being the first Pope, is that Jesus was actually talking to all the disciples while he was directly addressing Peter, you know. So it's like he was including the group, but he was narrowing down Peter. And why that's important, I believe, is because Jesus is actually saying look what I'm doing here in Caesarea Philippi. The declaration I'm making. I'm defeating the watchers right. I'm defeating the Nephilim, I'm defeating the fallen angels, but I'm also overpowering the gates of Hades, which this whole area believes are a thing right. They believe that there's gateways to the underground right.

  Zechariah Eshack: 34:17

  Yeah, I guess that would make sense, because Hades is a term that would have been known in the, because it's Greek.

  Cory Reckner: 34:24

  Right and it's referenced.

  Zechariah Eshack: 34:24

  All say it was necessarily the same thing as Sheol, but I almost feel like that they I don't think they had a concept of like I can't remember if it's they don't have a concept of hell or of Sheol. Obviously, sheol's maybe in the grave, kind of to signify death, yeah, yeah. So Hades is what would have been a common understanding. It would have been spoken of in their terms.

  Cory Reckner: 34:56

  For sure.

  Zechariah Eshack: 34:56

  That they could understand, rather than him mentioning hell or Sheol in context. You know, hell is more of a Christian kind of term and then. Sheol would have been more of the Hebrew term and then.

  Cory Reckner: 35:08

  Hades. That's a great point too, and the fact that he's referring to Hades right the gates of hell is something that Gentiles would have understood too. Yeah.

  Cory Reckner: 35:17

  Right so it's very contextual with this whole scene happening right now did start pronouncing Christ's kingdom as messianic kingdom and his kingship to the Jews in the book of Acts, but he was also responsible for a lot of Gentile conversions as well too. So we know that there's a lot of things happening with reference to both Jews and Gentiles in this statement, right, right, and from Christ specifically. So the way I've kind of viewed it is Peter's like bam, like, if this was a Holy Spirit-inspired moment, which that's what Jesus said it was. He's like, I'm sorry, father-inspired moment, right. He's like my Heavenly Father's revealed this to you, right. And Peter's like you're the Messiah, right, you are the one who is promised, who's come to redeem us of our sins, and Jesus, right after that, commends him. He's like yeah, and guess who? You are right, all of you guys, right. And Peter, you too right. You guys are the rock upon which I will build my church, because we all know that that's how the church started was through the disciples at first, and then it just spread, right.

  Cory Reckner: 36:32

  So, tying it back into what we're really talking about here, though I would personally believe that it's a little bit of both, of Jesus literally declaring that Peter was one of the main stones, right. But he was also the rock right upon which he's going to build his church, right? But I also believe that, yes, the confession of faith, it's like almost like, if you don't have that, you can't build a church off of it, right? So I kind of tend to view it almost a little dichotomously, like okay, so it's a little bit of both, but I want to kind of mesh them together. Because Jesus is saying upon this rock, I'm going to build my church together.

  Cory Reckner: 37:12

  Because Jesus is saying upon this rock, I'm going to build my church and I'm going to give you the keys to the kingdom. He didn't necessarily say to Peter I'm going to give you the keys to the church, right, he's talking about the kingdom of heaven, you know. So it's like, whatever you bind on earth, it's going to be bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth, it's going to be loosed in heaven. He's literally making a declaration to Peter that, through him and the disciples, right, because they all helped start the movement it wasn't just Peter, right, paul even did too, but he wasn't there at the time it was a declaration that Peter is the rock, right, and he was going to be used as a major foundation stone too.

  Zechariah Eshack: 37:46

  So yeah, I mean, since his name, petros, does mean small stone. Yeah, I mean, since his name, petros, does mean small stone. You know, I kind of wanted to focus on stones here for a minute. Sure, because this was something kind of new to me. I mean, I am familiar with the concept of altars and altar building in the Old Testament. That was a really significant thing, I think. You know, abraham built an altar after he was supposed to sacrifice Isaac and then God provided the lamb, jacob wrestled the angel of the Lord and then I think afterwards he had built an altar.

  Zechariah Eshack: 38:20

  So one of the things I looked up about altars and what I found interesting is that altars in the Old Testament were made with unhewn is what it's called or uncut stones made with unhewn is what it's called, or uncut stones. Basically, you know it was I don't want to say formless, but like not cut by human hands, not shaped in any way by human hands. So I think that this kind of directly kind of connects to um, the book of daniel. So nebuchadnezzar has a dream about and I'm sure you're familiar with it with that statue, and the statue is made of gold, bronze and clay, a mixture. It's supposed to represent physical kingdoms right and then so towards the bottom. In his dream you have a stone made without hands, but it was taken out of a mountain, and then the stone itself bashes the statue and then the stone continues to grow.

  Zechariah Eshack: 39:16

  From what I've researched is that the stone represents it could represent Christ himself, because obviously it's an uncut stone, but the interesting thing about the stone is that it continues to grow and expand and that is kind of representative of Christ's kingdom, or the kingdom of heaven, I think, because as it expands. So I think when the stone comes, there's a good chance that the stone itself was the kingdom being established, in that it was established based upon Peter's confession of faith. So I think at that moment, kingdoms of the earth are about to be destroyed, because what comes next? I think it was Rome was probably one of the last. It might not be the last, but it was probably one of the last ones depicted or foreshadowed in the statue.

  Cory Reckner: 40:09

  Fall of Rome. Yeah, like a world empire falling.

  Zechariah Eshack: 40:12

  Yeah. So I guess I would take it as you know. If you say with Peter, if you have his same confession, you know you are a small stone and you build upon the church, yeah, and just like the other disciples did, and I think, just like every other believer did In Peter, I think the church is to be recognized, and we'll get further into that. I wanted to discuss a few of the biblical passages to talk about the church and what it is, briefly, and then what it's built upon.

  Zechariah Eshack: 40:46

  Sure, so the church is the body of Christ and obviously, as we understand it according to the scriptures, it's referenced by many things Wheat the elect, christ's sheep, christ's bride, and it's a spiritual community united by faith in Christ. So this is Irenaeus. He says the church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and of all things in it. And then, ignatius of Antioch, he says wherever the bishop appears there, let the congregation be even, as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic church. Not wherever the Catholic church is, there's Jesus Christ, but wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. Not wherever the Catholic Church is, there's Jesus Christ, but wherever Jesus Christ is, there's the Catholic Church.

  Zechariah Eshack: 41:37

  When you're reading the early church creeds a lot of times the Nicene Creed for example it does say that Jesus being equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit, and basically they say that this is the catholic belief. If you hold to this, then you're holding to the catholic faith. So I think it's foundational, um foundational to what christianity is is our proclamation about who christ is, and that ties back to p Peter's confession of faith.

  Cory Reckner: 42:11

  Right, yeah, fully agree. Like I brought up to you earlier, just the fact that this was the first confession um of Jesus's Messiah ship, I think is a big deal too, because it's literally like it is a declaration of faith in Christ and Jesus responded well to that. He's like, because you've said this, you know. Yeah. So that's pretty big and, like you said, I think we all share. If you believe that that he did save humanity, then you are, like you said, a spiritual stone that Christ uses as a part of the church?

  Zechariah Eshack: 42:48

  Yeah, isn't there a passage in Peter where— as a part of the church? Yeah, isn't there a passage?

  Cory Reckner: 42:50

  in Peter, where, where the church is, spiritual stones that you're, yeah, considered spiritual stones that the Lord is using. Yeah.

  Cory Reckner: 42:58

  Which is funny, because that's why I think it's so related. Right, because Jesus, obviously he said that to Peter. And then Peter referenced more stones as the church. Still right, yeah, but he didn't say it was me, right. He didn't say and I'm still right, but he didn't say it was me, right. He didn't say and I'm Peter right, the church stone, right, the church cornerstone. He was always directing it back to Christ. Right, but we are all spiritual stones that the Lord is building as a part of his temple, aka his church, right?

  Zechariah Eshack: 43:26

  Right, yeah, so here's a few passages in scripture. I kind of wanted to touch on what the church is built upon. I should say so. This is Ephesians 2.20. The household or church of God is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone. First Corinthians 3.11. Romans 9.33 this is Jesus in Matthew 21.42. This is Jesus in Matthew 21, 42. Jesus said to them have you never read in the scriptures the stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This was the Lord's doing and it's marvelous in our eyes.

  Zechariah Eshack: 44:20

  In all of these passages it seems to be all referencing the same text in Psalm 118, verse 22.

  Zechariah Eshack: 44:30

  The stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone, and so I think that that's a really cool way of looking at it, because even in that passage of you know, the one that's debated to use to argue purgatory, you know it's obviously, I think Paul is talking about be careful how you build on the foundation, and I think that that foundation is Christ. And so in the passage it talks about how some build with you know, gold, silver, precious stones and other, build with hay, straw, stubble, stuff like that. And what's being said there, I think, is that what is being built upon the foundation. And I think it's interesting that they kind of use precious metals to kind of explain what's going to last, because I mean, as we know, you put that type of stuff in a fire and if those represent the works that we do for the kingdom, the ones that are going to be burnt away are the ones that are not truly done for Christ and his kingdom. That's how I kind of view it.

  Cory Reckner: 45:35

  Me too. Yeah, that's so true, and it's easy to decorate, right. It's easy to decorate on top of the foundation and make it look pretty, but is it durable, right?

  Zechariah Eshack: 45:48

  Yeah right, I wanted to go next into the keys of the kingdom, briefly, if you had anything else to touch on in regards to the stones or no.

  Cory Reckner: 46:00

  I don't think. So I think I think we tackled a lot there.

  Zechariah Eshack: 46:02

  We did. Yeah, I think for the sake of time, and I know that I have a lot of scripture references as well as early church father references, but I thought it was important to bring those in in particular to solidify or at least provide context to more of the Protestant position, and I think it's not to downplay the importance of Peter and who Peter was. Yeah, you know, I don't think it's. I think there's a thing that can happen where, from a Protestant standpoint, I think that what tends to happen Mary, for example we see her being too overly elevated and then I think that we tend to downplay her role. For example, I think that there's an over-glorification of Mary in some Catholic circles.

  Zechariah Eshack: 46:47

  Do I think all Catholics do that? No, yeah, but my point being is the same thing with baptism. Do I think all Catholics do that? No, yeah, but my point being is the same thing with baptism. I think that, from those who are more of the Baptist background and I was raised Baptist I think that we can tend to have an aversion to infant baptism because in our minds we associate it with Roman Catholicism, but in reality it's like Presbyterians, lutherans, anglicans all practice infant baptism. It's not strictly a Roman Catholic thing. But my point being is, sometimes I think as Protestants we can take it too far the other way, where it's like we might just be objecting to it. I mean, there may be good theological reasons to object to something, but what I'm saying is sometimes there can be extremes.

  Cory Reckner: 47:36

  Basically, For sure, I think sometimes because there are a lot of silent areas in scripture specifically, we as people love to fill in those gaps, maybe with an overemphasis on a specific answer or a conclusion that we think is the right way, and that's why, to me personally, like I'd mentioned, I went to school for the Bible, right. Yeah.

  Cory Reckner: 48:02

  I think we can all. First off, I think that it's so important to recognize that Scripture is the number one thing where you're going to get to know God the best, right, the best, and then after that it's God's people to get to know God the best, right, right. But I do think that there are a lot of confusing and sometimes not discussed topics from scripture that people like to overemphasize and, like I said, fill in the gaps a little bit and say this is the answer for that and just kind of, you know, promote it where I think sometimes well, maybe hyper focus on it and while excluding other passages.

  Zechariah Eshack: 48:47

  That may help shed some light into that.

  Cory Reckner: 48:49

  That's a good way of saying it, yeah, and I think that we need to be very careful with that sometimes, because I think that's where different denominations start branching out. Sometimes cults form because of these things, and I also think that it takes away from a lot of the most important stuff, right? Yeah.

  Cory Reckner: 49:06

  Like you said, maybe if there's an overemphasis with Mary or infant baptism, I think we're forgetting the fact that it's still as tying back to Christ where and it's a relationship right More than anything, and so it's like, okay, we can discuss these other things, but sometimes we're going to have to agree to disagree on some things, but let's just keep bringing it back to Jesus at the end of the day, no matter what you know. So I have to support everything you're saying there.

  Zechariah Eshack: 49:31

  Yeah, and going back to what you were saying about the call thing, sometimes, if you can hyper-focus on just one aspect of the or just even one scripture passage, for example, it, you know, for example, those people that, uh, I don't remember which denomination it was, but the ones that take the passage you know, be uh, something about like you'll be able to tread on serpents and not get hurt. They'll literally dance with snakes. And you've heard about people getting injured or dying in their tradition because they took that passage literally when maybe it was speaking more spiritually.

  Cory Reckner: 50:05

  Yeah, and referencing other things where there are other snakes mentioned in the Bible too, right, not just necessarily, yeah, you are going to actually tread on literal snakes. You know which you know. If you've done that and you've survived, good for you.

  Zechariah Eshack: 50:22

  Kudos to you.

  Cory Reckner: 50:23

  Yeah, pretty strong in faith, I guess, right.

  Zechariah Eshack: 50:27

  Yeah. So there's definitely dangers and maybe hyper, hyper. Fixating on one passage, and obviously I want to qualify it by not saying by, I guess I should say by saying that we're not when it comes to a lot of these debated doctrines too, sometimes, like you said, like the papal primacy and all of this. Yeah, you say papal, I say papal, papal, papal, papal.

  Cory Reckner: 51:02

  Tomato, tomato. But I do think that a lot of us can get really tied up in landing somewhere and then burying our feet in the ground and saying this is that for sure? And what I would suggest is I used to be like that, right, and God has just stretched me so much more, even over the past couple of years, with a lot of interpretive things that I thought I had figured out already, right. So I think that it's just really important for you know, anybody listening to remember that, like whether, whether or not you think Jesus was referring to Peter as something specific and not the disciples right, calling him the actual first Pope. What I would suggest is, you know, and I'm not saying I'm right over you, I'm saying I would suggest, like, let's just keep an open mind. Yeah.

  Cory Reckner: 51:51

  Because God does want to continue to show you more things about what you think you might already know, right, right. So yeah, I just want to throw that out there.

  Zechariah Eshack: 51:59

  Yeah, no, I appreciate it. So I wanted to bring up some of the early church fathers' view of the keys of the kingdom. Yeah, and because, as far as we know, the keys symbolize power and authority over the church and its teaching, right, the question is, is who has this authority? Who has the keys? Obviously, in Roman Catholic circles you would think Peter, and probably Peter alone, I mean, I think, speaking to that is where you kind of got the idea that you know, I was just briefly discussing this with someone the other day about the idea of penance.

  Zechariah Eshack: 52:37

  I believe it was kind of derived from the term, I think in the Latin Vulgate it had mistranslated. I believe the term was metanoia, which means repentance, but in the Latin Vulgate it was due, penance, which obviously those are two different things. Repenting of sins and paying a due are two different things, right, and so this is where you get the, you know, indulgence things that come in. And then, obviously, since the Bishop of Rome has the keys of the kingdom, then it's like, well, that's when indulgences kind of, you know, became at the forefront and started becoming really popular in Luther's day, and we all know how that turned out. So, but, yeah, because I mean, if he has the power to do so, obviously you would want to appease him. And if he can let you or your loved ones have less time in purgatory because he has keys, that's a big deal right. Right.

  Zechariah Eshack: 53:39

  So I mean, I think from our perspective as Protestants. I mean, if the Roman Catholics have softened their position where we're not heretics anymore but separated brethren, good for us. Right. So I mean, if they are right, then I think that that'll bode well. Yeah, I mean, you know, if they are right, then you know I think that that'll bode well. Yeah, yeah.

  Cory Reckner: 54:00

  It's always good to find out. You're right, yeah, yeah.

  Zechariah Eshack: 54:04

  So the keys of the kingdom? Back to that. So, the early church fathers, let's go. Let's start with St Augustine. He said the keys then are not for Peter alone, but they are for the whole church. St Augustine, he said the keys then are not for Peter alone, but they are for the whole church. St Jerome, what is bound on earth is bound in heaven because it is the power of Christ to bind and loose. Therefore, the power of the keys remain in the church and she, in the name of Christ, can forgive sins. St Cyprian, the power of the keys is given to the church, by which she is empowered to open the gates of the kingdom of heaven.

  Zechariah Eshack: 54:40

  Matthew 18, 18, um, obviously not a early church father reference, um, but this is jesus speaking to all the disciples. He says truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. So this is just a couple chapters after Matthew 16. Matthew 18, you know, even if Christ was speaking specifically to Peter about him having the keys and then the power of binding and loosing, it does seem to say that in Matthew 18, jesus, talking to all the disciples, says the same thing. So if the power of the keys are the power of binding and loosing, then we can speculate that that would spread out to all of the disciples, right? Yeah.

  Zechariah Eshack: 55:28

  I think that that is a reasonable assertion to me.

  Cory Reckner: 55:31

  Yeah, for sure, and that's why it would be easy to assume that what Jesus is saying is Peter, to you, I'm giving you the keys to the kingdom right, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. But like we talked about earlier I mean the early church right is who started Christianity? It wasn't just Peter. Right. So this is a lot of reference to the whole movement of Jesus at large right. Right.

  Cory Reckner: 56:08

  And I'll tell you this. I don't want to get you off track here, but I know I've heard a couple of theologians talk about keys can represent gaining access to something.

  Zechariah Eshack: 56:18

  I mean that makes sense.

  Cory Reckner: 56:19

  I mean it opens a door Right exactly, or a gate, yeah, it opens the lock to the gate, and one guy in particular had said it's actually like gaining access to the knowledge of God, right? So not only Peter but the church were going to be responsible for giving access to the knowledge of God because they had that right.

  Zechariah Eshack: 56:42

  I think that that makes sense to me, because if you're, you know, because if Christ is speaking to Peter and saying, you know, blessed are you, Simon Barjona, for flesh and blood hasn't revealed this to you, but my father who is in heaven. So it is that knowledge, you know, that saving faith, that faith in Christ that connects you to him and obviously saves you. And the church's responsibility is to preach you know it's to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, and to preach the good news, Right you know, of faith and repentance.

  Cory Reckner: 57:17

  Yeah, it's like evangelistic in nature and they are the ones that were given the responsibility right Saying this is up to you, you know.

  Zechariah Eshack: 57:26

  Yeah, yeah. So I say so a lot.

  Cory Reckner: 57:31

  That's okay, I say, and a lot.

  Zechariah Eshack: 57:33

  That's what I've realized during this podcast, yeah, yeah, okay, I say, and a lot.

  Zechariah Eshack: 57:35

  That's what I've realized during this podcast. Yeah, yeah, okay. So the primacy of Peter I this is this is really fascinating to think about. When it comes to some of the titles, like I said, I believe I don't have any issue with him being the first among equals or having a primacy of honor, but I do believe that he has a primacy of honor but not a jurisdiction. I don't think they cause.

  Zechariah Eshack: 58:01

  You have to make, you have to connect the dots of saying, okay, you believe that Peter is the rock and that Christ is building his church upon Peter and not the other way around. So them making them making that assertion and not the other way around. So them making that assertion. And then you have to next go to all of his successors have the same authority and have the same place as Peter. For me personally, even as a Protestant obviously I'm going to be biased towards my position, but trying to look at it for me at least from a scriptural standpoint, I find it hard to connect the dots that it also translates to all of his that Peter solely has this type of authority over all the entire church and there's also this Petrine succession, that they all have the same authority that he had. So with Peter having a primacy of honor, not of jurisdiction, so in his primacy is rooted in his confession of faith and obviously, you know, he's taken the lead with the apostles, right? So here's some of the early church fathers discussing this. So St Ambrose says Peter was the first among the apostles, but he was not superior in authority, for the others shared the same apostolic dignity.

  Zechariah Eshack: 59:22

  Obviously, I think that that's a big statement right there, because I think the whole idea of Petrine succession or Petrine primacy is to show that he is superior. He does have authority over all the rest, and then this is over all the rest. So, and then this is um Lee, pope, leo the great, the power of the keys is not in one alone, but in the whole church, which is founded on the faith of the apostles. So the power of the keys are not to Peter alone is what he's saying, but it's given to the entire, the church in its entirety. Gregory the great, who was also a Pope. Pope, if anyone calls himself the bishop of bishops or desires to be called by this name, he is a precursor of antichrist. So you would think that the idea of calling yourself a bishop of bishops and that, that idea you know that that's a precursor of antichrist. That sounds like a Protestant statement, right, like that sounds like something that, like Luther, would have said.

  Cory Reckner: 1:00:19

  Yeah.

  Zechariah Eshack: 1:00:20

  The quote is actually from a letter, his letter 14, written in 591 AD to John, who was a bishop at Constantinople. He was responding to John because John was giving himself the title ecumenical patriarch, which in my opinion is the same thing as universal bishop or the bishop of bishops. So Gregory saw that as a threat. Gregory the Great saw that as a threat and was like that's an assertion of universal authority which you do not have. And I don't think he's saying that I have it. I feel like he would have said that, but he was saying anyone who claims that is. He thought it was arrogance. So Peter's authority is not absolute.

  Zechariah Eshack: 1:01:06

  So St Cyprian was an important one to kind of bring into this, because I know that there was. He had a couple of works that were being contested for a while. I think it was on the unity of the church. This was something I read in William Webster's work, but he was talking about how I think the first one was kind of elevating yeah, maybe elevating the Bishop of Rome, but then the second one that he wrote and they ended up finding out, or at least stating both Protestant and Catholics alike, scholars have actually come out and said that no, we think that he wrote both, but basically he was softening the idea of or trying to soften how his words were being misinterpreted, because he was basically trying to focus on the unity of the church and about the chair of Peter, because he even used the chair of Peter to argue for his own position. He thought that local bishops who were, if they were, rightful bishops, held the chair of Peter.

  Cory Reckner: 1:02:04

  Yeah, it should be like Peter yeah.

  Zechariah Eshack: 1:02:06

  And so that some of the early church fathers make statements that where you have the faith of Peter, there you have Peter. And so when Cyprian argues, he says Peter. And so when Cyprian argues, he says the chair of Peter is the chair of unity and the church is one made up of all the apostles. St Augustine, he says that the entire apostolic college received the keys and the power of binding and loosing was given to all. There's two more things I want to touch on, and then we can, if you want to interject at any point, feel free to do so. So I thought this was important to kind of bring up.

  Zechariah Eshack: 1:02:44

  Two things I want to touch on was the timeline of the term Pope and what it means, the second part being the symbolism of biblical figures. So I'll maybe touch on the symbolism of biblical figures first. So I'll maybe touch on the symbolism of biblical figures first. So Peter, according to the early church fathers, represents the church, which, the church being of the elect, composed of both Jew and Gentile. And then Augustine, for example, brings this up, that Judas, he represents the Jews who were enemies and who rejected Christ. And then also too, at where the transfiguration scene took place, both Moses and Elijah were said to be there.

  Cory Reckner: 1:03:26

  You know where that was at too right, Was it Mount Hermon? Mount Hermon, Was it really? Wow, I'm going to have to study up on Mount Hermon. That's fascinating, actually A lot going on on that mountain, yeah, yeah.

  Zechariah Eshack: 1:03:38

  Yep. So Moses, he represents the law and then Elijah represents the prophets. You kind of see this sort of thing kind of Just in the biblical narrative. You see people that are representative of something, Like even Adam, like those who are, you know, I think it's called covenantal, or is it federal headship or covenantal headship, yeah, Basically where it's like if you're not, if you're in Adam, you know it only brings death. But if you're in Christ, you know it's everlasting life. Right.

  Zechariah Eshack: 1:04:14

  So that's why we must be transferred from the from under adam, yeah into into christ, because if you're under the headship of adam and it's only going to bring you know sin and death, yeah, you're in death, yeah yeah. So it's like it's kind of crazy how you see like that idea of covenantal headship and also about these biblical characters representing bigger picture items, I guess. So then, next on to the timeline of the term Pope. Now the term Pope actually just means referred to as Papa, papa.

  Cory Reckner: 1:04:51

  Yeah, papa. Papa, can you hear me? If you weren't going to, I was going to, had to.

  Zechariah Eshack: 1:04:58

  Yeah.

  Cory Reckner: 1:04:58

  Papa, papa, can you hear me? If you weren't going to, I was going to. Had to, yeah, had to.

  Zechariah Eshack: 1:05:01

  So it's a term that means father. So it says for the first to the fourth centuries it was used for bishops in general, including the Bishop of Rome, not exclusively to him. In the fifth century you see the term being used kind of more towards the bishop of Rome. It's still not exclusive. And then in the seventh century the title Pope is increasingly being applied to the bishop of Rome. And then by the eighth century, here you have the title. It just becomes largely associated with the Bishop of Rome, because even for the longest time even the Eastern Orthodox they would continue to call, I think, it's the priest or the bishop's, papa. So I thought that that was kind of important. It was more out of curiosity of when he started to be called referred to as the first Pope.

  Zechariah Eshack: 1:06:00

  Yeah, maybe yeah or just the term Pope itself you know where where it originated from, Um so that's very interesting.

  Cory Reckner: 1:06:07

  So what you're saying is from the first of the fourth centuries. That's where the origins happened with Pope or Papa. Yeah. And then it just kind of gradually became a thing, yeah, and then eventually it just became the thing yeah and so now it is like the referent of the papa figure in maybe a branch of a church right yeah papa, can you hear me?

  Zechariah Eshack: 1:06:29

  yeah, yeah, yeah I'll have to have an episode about some of the early terms that are used for leaders in the church, as well as church government, because how we view church government, I mean there's a lot.

  Cory Reckner: 1:06:43

  That's a pretty big deal too. Yeah, it's a pretty big deal, because it's like you have.

  Zechariah Eshack: 1:06:47

  I think it might be congregationalist. It's a little bit more of the church kind of chooses their pastor or leader. Presbyterians, obviously, are a little bit more organized where you know you have I mean you have a lot more church government. I don't fully understand it, just because I wasn't raised Presbyterian, you know. But like you have some of these traditions that are a little bit more, you know, led by Presbyters and then other ones that are led by, like bishops, and then you have priests underneath these bishops. I think it's a little bit more like Anglicanism and Roman Catholicism. So it would just be interesting to dive deeper into how those started and who advocated for those particular views. Right.

  Zechariah Eshack: 1:07:30

  So I hope I've given you know, I hope we've kind of given the listeners something to think about when it comes to who the rock is in Matthew 16, and that sometimes things are a little bit more nuanced. And this isn't to just kind of go out of our way to bash Roman Catholics, but I thought it was an important thing to bring up, because how the early church fathers viewed something I think you know. Like I said, going back to the beginning, I feel like there's a lot of Roman Catholic apologists that will take some of these things and then you'll have even Roman Catholic historians that will have a different view and I feel like it's a lot more balanced of a view. That's what I love about historians I feel like they can be a lot more objective.

  Cory Reckner: 1:08:13

  Yeah, very necessary, yeah, very necessary, yeah very necessary, because.

  Zechariah Eshack: 1:08:17

  I don't think, as long as they're not trying to bring their preconceived notions or biases into it. I think some of these historians in different denominations have just helped out the church understand these things and some of the theological teachings. Yeah, hopefully we've given our listeners something to think about and obviously, like I said, we'll stand with August and say we'll leave it to the readers or the listeners to decide which they think is more probable. Yeah, I've really enjoyed having you on. I really appreciate the listeners taking the time to listen to this longer episode. I mean, it was really great. I enjoyed talking about talking about it. Um, do you have anything else you wanted to touch on before we, before we close, do you?

  Cory Reckner: 1:08:56

  have anything else you wanted to touch on before we close. Let's see, not much that I can think about. I would just recommend, like we kind of have addressed already I would say, always be willing to dig into the historical biblical perspective but also examine the context that a lot of these passages like like. Examine that as well, right Cause, like I said, the whole thing with Caesarea Philippi, how there's so much, you know, there's a lot of nuance going on there that's not even specifically referenced to the gates of Hades that a lot of these Gentiles believed in. Yeah, right.

  Cory Reckner: 1:09:36

  And you're only going to find that out if you dig a little deeper. You know, rather than just assume that Jesus is saying one thing or the other, there's always something Jesus is referring to that might have some more socio-political, historical context that we wouldn't, I think, find out unless we'd examined it and dug a little deeper. So, please, I would always suggest that, being a Bible studies major, you will never stop learning things about the Bible for the rest of your life. It is way too complex and it has been a centuries and thousands of years old book that has been compiled, gathered together, but it is so important.

  Zechariah Eshack: 1:10:17

  And it continues to amaze too, you know.

  Cory Reckner: 1:10:19

  Yeah, I mean, let's be real right, Like we're always discovering, we're not like writing new Bible passages but we're not creating doctrine either.

  Cory Reckner: 1:10:29

  We're just discovering more about the doctrines maybe that were originally composed in these texts. So it's very important to do a little extra digging when it comes to biblical interpretation, because I've heard a lot of people. I watched a debate the other day and I don't wanna talk too much longer. I know we've been talking forever. I watched a debate the other day where a biologist was just trying to just totally debunk everything about the Bible. He's like it's outdated, it's ambiguous, it's black and white, and which is funny, because ambiguous and black and white usually don't always go together.

  Zechariah Eshack: 1:11:06

  No, yeah, those seem conflicting yeah.

  Cory Reckner: 1:11:08

  Yeah, but he's saying you know, it shouldn't even be credible. And I'm like well, I think you're imposing that upon people today, but you're disrespecting the people of the past that literally gave their lives to put this huge thing together. You know. Yeah. And I think that's completely disrespectful towards ancestry and everything. Yeah. Well, and it's— it's very important to do some digging and learn this stuff, you know.

  Zechariah Eshack: 1:11:33

  Yeah, and I think the cohesiveness of scripture, as well as the biblical prophecy in scripture. I think that for those people who are hesitant, I mean it's you know, I think that someone who truly studies it I mean, if they're guided by the spirit, it's some of these things are just mind blowing. They really are. And going back to what you said about just diving deeper into it, I mean Arthur Pink says you know, the Bible was not designed for lazy people. You know it's not designed for lazy people. You can't, you, can't be lazy.

  Cory Reckner: 1:12:06

  Like you have to.

  Zechariah Eshack: 1:12:07

  You know you have to, you have to put the work in and it's, it's um, you know, I I think that salvation in Christ, you know that that's different. But when it comes to actually being able to think through these things and just grow deeper in your knowledge and insight into scripture, you know you can't, you can't be, you can't be lazy.

  Cory Reckner: 1:12:27

  It's funny.

  Zechariah Eshack: 1:12:28

  It's hard, I mean it's very easy to be lazy in our generation. I find myself doing it. Oh yeah. And just, we have so many distractions.

  Cory Reckner: 1:12:35

  We do. I'd say it's.

  Cory Reckner: 1:12:39

  You could be lazy going into it, but you're going to be a hard worker coming out of it Honestly yeah, especially when you dig in.

  Zechariah Eshack: 1:12:44

  Yeah, yep, yep, totally agree. Well, thanks again, Cory, for coming on. I really appreciate you taking the time with us today, and you know, just to unpack this, and I want to also thank our listeners, and I also wanted to bring up that you know I have a website at the restless theologian. com. Feel free to check out episodes. Transcripts also have some merch, so feel free to check it out and we'll, we'll, we'll, see you next time. Thanks, Cory.

  Cory Reckner: 1:13:13

  Yeah, appreciate it, Zech, thanks.

• Episode References

  Primary Scripture References:

  • Matthew 16:13–20 – Jesus gives Peter the "keys of the kingdom," promising authority to bind and loose.

  • Isaiah 22:20–22 – Prophecy about Eliakim receiving "the key of the house of David," a symbol of royal authority.

  • John 20:21–23 – Jesus breathes on the disciples and grants authority to forgive or retain sins.

  • Revelation 1:18 – Christ holds the keys of Death and Hades.

  • Revelation 3:7 – Christ identifies Himself as holding "the key of David."

  Theological Concepts Referenced:

  • Authority of the Church – The church receives delegated authority to teach, discipline, and forgive sins.

  • Petrine Primacy – The special role of Peter among the apostles, seen in Roman Catholic and some Protestant traditions.

  • Binding and Loosing – Terms describing the authority to make decisions on doctrine, discipline, and forgiveness.

  • Succession of Authority – Whether the authority given to Peter and the apostles continues through church leadership today.

  • Ecclesiology – Study of the nature, structure, and authority of the church.

  • Kingdom of God – The reign of God inaugurated by Christ and expressed through the church’s ministry.

  Historical and Confessional References Implied:

  • Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies – Early testimony about apostolic succession and authority.

  • Tertullian, On Modesty – Reflection on ecclesial authority to forgive sins.

  • Augustine of Hippo – Interpretation of Peter’s confession as foundational for the church.

  • The Westminster Confession of Faith (Chapter 25: Of the Church) – Reformed view on the authority of the visible church.

  • The Catechism of the Catholic Church (¶ 553, 881–896) – Teaching on Peter’s primacy and episcopal authority.

  • The Augsburg Confession (Article VII) – Lutheran statement on the true unity of the church tied to Word and Sacrament, not institutional hierarchy.

• FAQs

  1. What are the "keys of the kingdom" that Jesus mentions in Matthew 16:19?

  In the episode, Zechariah and Cory discuss that the "keys of the kingdom" symbolize authority within the church. Zechariah references early church fathers, noting, "St. Augustine said the keys then are not for Peter alone, but they are for the whole church." This suggests that the authority to bind and loose is granted to the entire church, not just to Peter.

  2. Does the authority to "bind and loose" apply only to Peter, or to all disciples?

  Zechariah points out that in Matthew 18:18, Jesus speaks to all the disciples, saying, "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." This indicates that the authority to bind and loose extends beyond Peter to all disciples.

  3. How did early church fathers interpret the "keys of the kingdom"?

  The episode highlights that early church fathers like St. Jerome and St. Cyprian viewed the keys as a symbol of the church's authority. Zechariah notes, "St. Jerome said, 'What is bound on earth is bound in heaven because it is the power of Christ to bind and loose.' Therefore, the power of the keys remains in the church."

  4. What is the significance of the location where Jesus gave Peter the "keys of the kingdom"?

  Zechariah and Cory discuss that Jesus conferred the keys at Caesarea Philippi, a place associated with pagan worship and considered the "gates of Hades." This setting underscores the authority of the church over spiritual darkness. Zechariah explains, "The complex narratives of Mount Hermon and Caesarea Philippi are explored, revealing connections to demonic lore and the symbolic 'gates of Hades.'"

  5. How does the concept of "binding and loosing" relate to church practices like indulgences?

  The episode examines how translation differences between Greek and Latin terms influenced the development of practices like indulgences. Zechariah mentions, "Since it was believed that the Bishop of Rome has the keys of the kingdom, that's when indulgences kind of became at the forefront and started becoming really popular in Luther's day."

  6. What is the Protestant perspective on the authority symbolized by the "keys of the kingdom"?

  Zechariah and Cory discuss that, from a Protestant viewpoint, the authority represented by the keys is not centralized in a single figure but is distributed among the faithful. "The power of the keys is not in one alone, but in the whole church, which is founded on the faith of the apostles."

• Further Study

  • "The Primacy of Peter" – Edited by John Meyendorff (Patristic perspectives from Orthodox scholars)

  • "Jesus and the Demons" – Graham H. Twelftree (Study on Mount Hermon and spiritual warfare themes)

  • "The Gospel According to Rome" – James G. McCarthy (A Protestant critique of Catholic doctrines)

  • "Reading Scripture with the Church Fathers" – Christopher A. Hall (Intro to early Christian interpretation)

  • “The Church of Rome at the Bar of History” – William Webster