Justified by Faith

Season 1 Episode 6 Transcript

For our 6th episode, we will be discussing one of the core beliefs of Christianity, justification or rather justification by faith alone. Today joining me, I have my guest on again, Ben Beaver. How are you doing, Ben? Oh, man. I am doing really good.

How are you, man? Good. Good. Been staying pretty busy. How are you doing?

Man, it, been been very busy. But, you know, you you texted me and we're like, hey, let's talk about justification. And, you know, after just celebrating Easter just a little bit ago, I'm like, yeah. That's a great conversation to have, and, I think a really good reminder. So I'm I'm excited about talking about it today.

Yeah. Same here. And and I feel like there's a lot of, I I would say, out of the doctrines that are controversial I mean, I know that predestination would definitely be up there, but I would say justification is probably one of the next most heated conversations or controversial, topics. Why do you say that? Well, it's just I mean, that's the big question.

Right? Like, how are we justified in God's sight? Mhmm. And I think some of the passages in scripture, you know, like you hear you have Paul, who seems pretty adamantly saying that man is justified by faith apart from works of the law, and then you have James on the other hand saying a man is not justified by, faith alone, but by works. So you have that little bit of, you know, some It's a bit bit of a tension between those 2 because it it on first look, it really does seem like they're saying the exact opposite things from each other.

Yeah. And I I I have heard it expressed that, I can't remember who was saying it, but, like, basically, their perspective on it and I've heard different perspectives, but that or that, Paul is talking about how a man is justified in the sight of God, and then James is having the conversation about how man is considered justified in the sight of man. Mhmm. So that was an interesting perspective, to look at. Yeah.

And it's it's definitely it's like you've you've probably said a lot on here is just it's it's context, man. Context is key, and knowing exactly what Paul is talking about there in Romans. I mean, Romans is a theological, but the you know, it's the gospel. Yeah. Like, Romans, is Paul's, you know, unsaid, but it's Paul's gospel is is Romans.

And it really lays out, so much of our theological beliefs. And and Paul's Paul's a pretty blunt guy. I got a feeling that Paul and I probably wouldn't get along very well. I'd love to think I would get along with him, but I got a feeling he was he was, he was a very specific theologian. You know what I mean?

Like, he was very, adamant. And I always loved the piece of scripture where, where in in, in Peter. One of the letters with Peter. He talks about Paul and there's like that little tension there. And I'm like, man, like, it makes sense.

It's different personalities, you know? Yeah. He was definitely a lot more direct. A lot more, you you know, just straightforward, like, no nonsense. But, yeah, speaking of Paul, like I mean, Paul has a lot to say about this topic, and, you know, I wanted to dive in a little bit into, I believe it's Romans 4, just about this idea that Abraham was justified by faith.

Know, I think he's referencing back Genesis 15 about how Abraham was justified by faith apart from works of the law. And, he was even considered or reckoned, just in the sight of God before he had even received the sign of circumcision. Yeah. Which is like like literally there's there was no specific written law at that time, which is pretty crazy to think about how Abraham believed God. Like, I think we kinda we kinda forget and pass by it.

Just in the kind of the history of it. Like, oh, yeah. Like, they must have been, you know, there must have been some kind of scriptures, which but it is true that, you know, Moses was the one God used to write all that down. That's very far after Abraham. So Yeah.

It it Yeah. So he he had no written text to refer to. No. No. I mean, he would have had, oral oral, like, transmission, if you will, from, from his his mom and dad, their mom and dad, their mom and dad going through those genealogies.

But in the same same way, it's like, man, we forget just how in the dark Abraham probably was. Well, yeah. I think, I mean, since god called him out of his homeland and from, from my from my knowledge that, like, it was more of a a pagan land and Yeah. They only had a Ur. So Yeah.

So to me, it probably seems doubtful that his parents even knew God. You know? I mean, it's possible. I I don't I don't know if scripture actually touches on that. No.

I think it's I think it's pretty quiet about it, but I think it's a really good reminders we're looking into justification. Just how how how that when when when he says, you know, Abraham believed God, you know, is credited to him as righteousness. Like, how much faith that actually took. You know? Yep.

Well, and I think scripture uses, and I think it it depends sometimes on the translation, but it'll go through saying that, sometimes they'll use the the version of, I wanna say reckoned or counted. I do love it. Like reckons righteous, counted righteous. So they kinda use that interchangeably, or declared righteous. So you kinda get this visual imagery that you know, of a judge, handing down a ruling, because, I mean, that's kind of the sense in which more of the reformed believe in justification is that almost like a legal standing before God where God is declaring something about you.

So it's not that he's doing anything to you in justification in that part of it, but sanctification being separately is, you know, the holy spirit working in you. So while, like, justification and sanctification are closely connected, not not to be confused with the same, you know, the same idea. Yeah. They're I would say they're they're different parts in the same. They're different parts of a coin in some regard.

Yeah. But just to just to kinda have a good starting place. I mean, I'm I'm thinking through. There's a bunch of different verses. Romans 5:1, therefore, since we've been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I mean, you're right. Paul is all over this. Titus 37, so that being justified by his grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Romans 328, you know, for we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. And it's a lot of the a lot of actually the same wording in Galatians, first Corinthians.

But what would you say, you know, to put down, like, what is a good running definition of justification? Like, I would say being declared righteous. So it's like if a judge hands down a ruling, like, then this is just gonna be a crass example, but let's say that, for example, with murder or homicide, if someone kills another person, depending on the context, like, we would know that if it's in self defense, it would be admissible, and the judge may declare that person to be just or justified in their actions. So it's not saying the judge isn't doing anything to him. He's making a proclamation about that person's status.

So I would I would kinda more think along those lines. What do you think? One of the things I heard, especially in, I remember getting my license to be a pastor. And the kinda piece to remember because it was a pretty grueling test, was just as if I never send. And, that'll mess with a couple people, I'm sure.

But once again, to go back to that picture, you ever this is an awkward question to ask while you're recording, but, like, have you ever been to court before? I have not, actually. I I've been called for jury duty, but cross my fingers, I've never had to go. So I I actually got to do I, I've been been to court as a as a part of the jury. And, it was so interesting being in there and getting to experience that ended up being something extremely petty, which was kind of annoying.

But seeing people weighing out the pros and cons, and then what is true, what is untrue. And, I love that picture of, you know, you said like a murderer or bring to mind like your your worst sin ever, if you will. If there is such a continuum of sin, the ones that we, you know, adultery and and, you know, murder and, you know, anything in that regard that pretty much anybody will say, oh, that's that's bad. You know, even even an unbeliever would say that. Yeah.

And, you know, by all means, everybody in the courtroom, you know, is saying, yeah. This this person is completely guilty. You know, Ben is completely guilty of this. And then it's it's I I did hear the story once from, or the picture of it. It'd be like getting to that spot in the courtroom, and then the judge saying, yeah.

I know. I know he's guilty. I know Ben's guilty. But I'm gonna actually give my son to take away that, to take that guilt. To take away the sentencing on this.

And that's when I guess you're right. That that is where people get into a bunch of fun theological terms of what exactly that is. But, that's the idea of it is we are guilty, you know, completely. But Yeah. It's it's it's that, paying of a debt that, like, we're unable to pay.

And Completely. You know, and I was thinking recently, you and me have the same buddy, Corey. You know, he's been on for a couple episodes. By the way, congratulations on his 3rd daughter. Go go, Corey.

That was awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'll have to reach out to him, and I haven't I haven't touched base with him yet.

They're doing really good. I was texting with him a little bit. Cute kid. Good. Good.

But one of the conversations that we had had was, you know, I asked him about that passage in scripture in the New Testament, you know, that Christ says on the cross, you know, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And and I remember him telling me this was, like, a couple years back, I think, and he was like, oh, yeah. He's like, it's from the Psalms. And I'm like Mhmm. I'm like, really?

And he goes, yeah. And he he could tell me which, you know, which psalm it was and everything, and I was, pretty impressed that he knew exactly what passage and verse. But so some try to say that Christ is actually quoting the Psalms. But I almost think it's more along the lines of that since David is very prophetic in some of his words, that I think he's prophesying what Christ is going to say. And I, for a crazy, both might be true within that.

Like, yeah. I mean, maybe it's not an either or. Maybe it's both. Psalm 22 is what it's referencing. So, I remember the first time I did read that, because I knew, you know, growing up, Protestant, you know, a little bit more of the New Testament than the Old Testament.

And when I read, my God, my God, you know, why have you forsaken me? And then it goes in, and it goes into the entire picture of it, and you're like, this was 1000 of years before this happened. And, sorry I cut you off, but it was just No. No. You're fine.

It's a powerful thing. So what was happening in that moment when it comes to justification? Well, I think that, well, one of the reasons why I bring it up is that it's always confused me, like, growing up, you know, like, as a kid, and I'd never understood it. I it seemed like out of character for Christ. And so I think that that's why it's always bothered me, why it's always kinda stuck in the back of my mind.

But anyway, like, the way I think about it now, thinking of, you know, a lot of Christians believe in substitutionary atonement. Mhmm. But I believe in, like, penal substitutionary atonement that since God's wrath has to be satisfied and since he's perfectly righteous and holy, like, it just sin has to be paid for. And so I think that, it really brings to mind that passage where Paul talks about how I think it's in 2nd Corinthians that he who knew no sin became sin that we might become the righteousness of God. And I think that's where you see that that double imputation, because I like to think of Abraham, you know, with original sin.

A lot of Christians believe in it. I would say, you know, obviously, Roman Catholics and Protestants, I don't I don't believe, and I'm not an expert in orthodox, what what what the orthodox believe. But I actually don't believe that they they hold to original sin. They they believe that man has a susceptibility to sin since the fall, but they don't believe in original sin. I believe that they rejected it and which is very fascinating to think about since it is more of an Augustinian perspective, and so they reject like predestination, the filoque, you know, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from, both the father and the son.

So they reject that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the, from the son. But that's a side note. But Yeah. You're like, that's a that's a later episode. And and for sure, I mean, there's there's the actual, like, if you will, the theological view of Catholicism or some Orthodox.

I know from friends of mine that are Catholic and friends of mine that are, more Orthodox. It's kind of like saying all protestants believe this. You haven't talked to many protestants then? You know, I'm I'm not saying justification. I'm just saying in general, we're not that organized.

And there's a lot of different camps within certain things. It's something I've realized over the years. Because I remember in theology books, I would hear, like, well, because, you know, Catholics believe this. And I'm like then I talk to Catholics, and they're like, no. Like, I I believe this.

I'm like, oh, okay. Like, it all comes down to, you know, what is your relationship with Jesus? And how how are you pursuing or not pursuing him? But back to justification. I I do love Galatians 2 16.

Yet, we know that a person is not justified by works of the law, but through faith in Christ Jesus. So we also have been believed in Christ Jesus in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law. Because by works of the law, no one will be justified. And I love you brought up Abraham earlier, which really is is the foundation of what would be, the Israelite people following God. You know, he's like the the founding father, if you will.

And then later on through Moses, writing, you know, the Pentateuch, writing all of the, the law basically. I mean, there's other other pieces later. But like, the main thing that we see within the law is this idea of animal sacrifice. And for anybody who just came to know Jesus, that is like, woah. This is very very cult y sounding.

Like, did God change his mind? Why why did, you know, why do why would they do this with bulls and and, you know, doves and all all these things. And if anybody's, you know, you know, more, vegan, this is a very hard conversation. But, like, what was God why why why was God setting that up with his people in in regards to justification? Well, I think it was, I mean, it was definitely a foreshadowing, and, even in even in the depiction of, the high priest would lay his hands on, I believe a lamb or a goat, and it would symbolize the transfer of all the people's sins to that goat.

Now, it's been a while since I've read, you know, some of these Old Testament passages. From from my recollection, I think that there was usually 2 lambs involved where one was, I believe, killed, and then the other one was sent outside the camp or maybe burned outside the camp. I can't remember. But but basically, you know, the point I'm getting at is the whole laying on of hands and signaling that transfer. And I think that that transfer of the people's guilt and their sins to the lamb, obviously, would be foreshadowing Christ, but it would also be, kind of, like, imputation because a lot of Christians do believe in imputation, like, even though they may not even realize it.

Because with original sin or like in the reform camp, you know, we may call it total depravity, and so we may have different, definition. But, I mean, we still believe in original sin. It's just our definition of it may be different from other Christians. But what I wanted to get at was that when Christ comes and, you know, going back to that passage that he who knew no sin became sin, that we might become the righteousness of God, there is that double imputation where it's like our sins are imputed to him, and his righteousness is imputed to us. So it is a righteousness that's outside of ourselves.

100%. 100%. And, even that thing of animal sacrifices, was setting up that blood had to be be paid for it. That picture that, you know, sin couldn't be because a lot of people have, or can kind of fall into the trap of like, well, basically, God said sin doesn't matter that much, you know, because of Jesus. And it's like, well, no.

No. Like, sin mattered a lot and sin matters a lot. And the only way I mean, you look at Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. He was asking God, his father saying, God, is there any other way? And he realized, no, there is no other way.

Why? Because there needed to be blood spilled, perfect blood spilled. And, I love it. Out of Hebrews, you know, later on, you know, Hebrews 9:22 says, Indeed, under the law, almost everything is purified with blood. And without shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins.

Yeah. And Yep. And that's why it it brings up about how, the sacrifices of bulls and goats, you know, was not sufficient. You know, like, that that their blood wasn't It wasn't enough. Enough.

No. It they they it needed to have an absolute perfect sacrifice. And, that's the beauty of it. I love, that picture of of justification where all of it is placed on Jesus who didn't deserve any of it at all. And then through his death, it's it's paid for.

And that's where that that simple line of justification is just as if I never sinned, which is is insane with how much I've sinned. Like and to see that and to truly man, that's something right there to talk about is, like, how do you to actually live through that justification in Christ, and I know we can get into sanctification, but that's a different different topic To actually interact with God, like, justification is real because it is. Like, how does that change your life? So I've heard it recently, and I think it was when I was watching a debate that and I forgive me. I don't remember who said it, but basically what the point that they were getting at was that, how being justified in God's sight and like, we're no longer slaves to, like, to the law.

Like, the law brings death. But obviously in Christ it's it's different because it's like well we don't we don't have to fear the law how we would have previously, you know, under Adam because it's like it kinda frees us up from having to worry about that guilt. And I'm not saying you shouldn't feel sorry about things that, you know, the sins that you commit, but I'm saying that we don't have to, necessarily always dwell on it and let it defeat us because, you know, since we know that Christ is our advocate and that he stood in our place, it frees us up to serve God in such a way that we don't have to we don't have to dwell on that guilt. You know what I mean? Like, it's almost like the guilt.

Like like, we can be obedient out of love and not fear. Yeah. Because, it's interesting. I grew up in, in, more Pentecostal camps of thinking. And I love my Pentecostal friends and all that.

But there was always this term called, backsliding. And that idea that, you know, if you did enough of the wrong things, that you would fall out of God's grace. And, you know, it it took years years, God working on that in me, to know that that's totally missing the point. Because it was living in this fear relationship with God. And in a lot of ways, that's that is what you live whenever you are are not living in the justification of Christ.

You're living like you need to justify yourself. And we're not we're not equipped on our own to do that at all. If To to justify ourselves? We can't. That's that's that was the whole point of I love when Paul's talking about the old testament.

He's like, the point of it is to show us that we can't on our own. You know? Like, we needed an advocate. We needed, and we need an advocate. And, you know, I was reading this quick quote about justification.

I thought it was interesting. Properly understood, justification has to do with God's declaration about the sinner, not any changes within the sinner. The actual change towards holiness in in the center occurs with sanctification like we're talking about, which is related to but distinct from justification. There is there is nothing that I can do to earn the justification of Jesus. Yeah.

Since it since it flows, from faith and faith is a gift and given by God, then it's obviously something that cannot be merited. It's it's crazy to see how these doctrines touch one another, And a lot of times too, I think it's a matter of order. Yep. So it's like it's not that it's not when someone holds to justification by faith alone, they're saying that a man could could and should live however he wants, and he's justified, so it doesn't matter. That's really not what it's saying.

It's saying that since we are justified by faith in Christ and declared righteous in his sight, we don't have to look to our own works or our merits and have that. I mean, honestly, if I had to look at that constantly and I think it's I think it's just kind of part of our nature too. We, a lot of times, fall into that where we we do look at we do look at it, and we start to be fearful and fall back in fear just because we know that we're not righteous. Yeah. And that we cannot do it through our works.

I love I love Paul's, exclamation out of Romans 6 15, where he says, you know, after talking about this, you know, justification by faith alone, he's like, what then? Are we to sin because we are not under the law, but under grace? By no means or a couple of the other translations are just, like, woah. Not like, no. No.

Yeah. That's that's I I almost hear Paul being, like, that's silly. Like, Yeah. Almost like he thinks it's ridiculous to you. It is it is a 100% ridiculous because we but yet we do it.

Just be, you know, frank and honest in in in my heart at times. I go, well, you know, God's gonna forgive me. It'll be okay. Knowing full well, I'm I know that I am justified only in Christ by faith and in what he's done on the cross for me and sealed within his death. I know I'm justified.

I accept that from God, and that gift. Because that I I like what you said earlier. It's kinda up in the air of saying, like, it's what God declared about you and has kinda nothing to do with you. And that's absolutely true, but there's also that level of agreeing with God. That's, you know, people like to say that's my truth and all that stuff.

I do I I feel weird every time somebody says that. But it's saying, okay. Yeah. What God says about me, that's that's what I believe. That that is what is true.

Yeah. Well, and Sproul does bring this up too that, like, sometimes those people that will continue to, like dwell on the guilt and, almost kind of fixate on it and don't feel that they're gonna be forgiven, you know, he brings up he's like, well, I I think that you should repent because, he's like, you're not really believing and trusting in god and what what his promises are and what he's and the the status that he's given you by through union with him. There is, there there is an a passage about the the wedding feast. I'm sure you're familiar with it. I wanted to bring it up real quick.

Yeah. You're good. So it says, go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find, and those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. But when the king came to look at the guests, he saw that there was a man who had no wedding garment, and he said to him, friend, how did you get in without a wedding garment?

And he was speed speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, bind him hand and foot and cast him in the outer darkness in the in that place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. I've thought of this, and like I've thought on it, and, Sproul does bring this passage up as well. And what I think is really cool that he kinda hones in on, it's like, well, what if what if that robe, what if that garment is that righteousness of Christ? Mhmm.

And that if you think that you can get into heaven or into, you know, into heaven through another way, it's kind of a parallel passage, I think, is John 10, you know, that where he says, I am the, you know, I am the gate. Yeah. I'm the doorway. You know, like, those who come in and out of pasture have to go through me, where he's like, everyone who tries to come in another way are thieves and robbers. So it's, you know, basically saying that you have to go through him, and it's his righteousness, in my opinion, that, like, that justifies you.

But if you try to get in any other way, that, you know, it's hopeless. It's hopeless without going through him. And it's it's very sobering, but it's a good reality to keep coming back to is that no matter how much good we do or how much, we tell people about Jesus or how much we, you know, dwell on truth and and think about theology and all those pieces. At the end of it all, when we stand before God, and basically, he's like, you know, what do you plead? And it's like, Jesus.

Like, that's the only only thing I can plead. You know, our our righteousness is like dirty rags. And I feel like we I'm just speaking for myself again. I feel like we start to feel good about ourselves a bunch. Yeah.

When when we're doing really good stuff, which I think is good. I I think God made us that way that, like, doing good feels good. But I know within my heart at times, I've been like, well, I'm like almost like in a little bit better favor because of position or because of actions and all those pieces. And it's just it's sim it's simply just not the math. You know?

And, out of justification, God's saying, you are right. I see Jesus when I look at you. That's sad. And then it's out of that that you live your life. Not living your life to become justified.

Because I think on an on an emotional level, we all we all kinda live that way, man. Like, whether it's our jobs, whether it's relationships that we we are in, you know, spouses or or girlfriends, whatever, boyfriends. And it's and it's like, people feel like they need to earn right standing relationship. And that's that's like the surefire sign that a relationship is not gonna work. Well, I think it is a, I think it's maybe a foreign concept to us, just because we live in such a meritocracy.

You know? Things are Yeah. Based upon merit or at least that's how we view that they should be. And so when you're presented with this idea of the gospel and faith being something that's given to you, it's like, well, if it can't be earned, it's like, well, how do you how do you get it? How do you get it?

Yeah. You're like, yeah. How do you get it? How do you keep it? Yeah.

And and that's where it's taking kinda taking ourselves out of the, you know, out of the influence of the industrial revolution and all the things that are are American and capitalism and, you know, all those pieces. Taking ourselves out of that, and looking more at the relationship between, a father and, you know, a son. And I I remember because growing up, like I said, growing up in in the camps where I was like, well, if you backslid enough, you know, it was always the fear. If you backslide enough and then, you know, you get hit by a car or something, you know, you're going to hell. And I remember one day, it was it was actually I don't forget what what actually was going on at the time, but I remember kinda thinking.

It was like, well, God, when he comes in, you know, into our our our lives, we accept him into our hearts. The Holy Spirit comes and lives with us. Is the Holy Spirit just there, you know? It's not like the Holy Spirit comes and goes. You know?

Like, no. The Holy Spirit is inside of us. God through Christ. And I remember, like, yeah. Like, what what father and even the in that thing of, like, adoption and how God brings us into his family.

What father, good father, is gonna be like, hey. You know? Like like, man, I got 4 kids, and I love my kids. If one of my kids comes to me and, you know, or does something really stupid, which can happen sometimes. Like, I'm not gonna be like, hey, you're no longer my son anymore because he messed up.

Well, no. Like, he's my son no matter what. Like Yeah. I I think yeah. I think to that that falls upon, the idea of discipline.

You know, going back to what you said about Hebrews, I think it's somewhere in actually maybe chapter 9 about, you know, those whom he loves, he chastises. Yeah. So I think that there's a difference between Christ disciplining those who belong to him and then also the punishment of the wicked. Like, I believe that they're 2 separate things because it's like not all punishment is bad or meant to be harmful. You know, there's punishment to make us, you know, make us better.

Like so I think that that would fall under the lines of sanctification. So it's so it's not that we're saying that just because we, you know, a person may believe in justification by faith alone, that means that that God declared them righteous, and then, therefore, God just leaves them alone. It's like, well, that's not what You know, that's not what they believe. They believe that God does justify them, but the Holy Spirit also, it is a process where he the Holy Spirit does sanctify you and works inwardly in you. And I feel like sometimes that conversation gets a little bit lost where the idea of, because, I mean, I feel like that God the father, God the son are talked about a lot.

But sometimes it's a little bit missed where, the presence of the Holy Spirit and about, I was reading a BB Warfield book, and it was talking about how he honed in on that passage where, I think it might be written by Paul, but basically that, the Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit that we're children of God. So it's like it's not just us and our own conscience that says that we're children of God. It's like the Holy Spirit actually testifies with our spirit to, like, reaffirm it to us. Oh, I need and I need that so practically because, there's days I don't feel like I'm God's child. You know?

Like Yeah. I know that truth in my head, but all of those those other things come into it. And and you're right. I, you know, the joke was always, especially in conservative church, in a not an opposed, but juxtaposition to, like, more, charismatic, churches or Pentecostal churches, where I grew up around. What we talked about was the holy Spirit, like, all the time.

Yeah. But in conservative church, you know, it's father, son, and holy Bible. Like, well, yes. But the whole whole holy Bible, our our our scripture is breathed by the Holy Spirit, which also lives in us. And not only in us personally, but also us collectively in the church.

And I know that's a lot of pieces, but realizing that I love, you know, it's the idea of the helper. I love when Jesus says that before he goes, you gotta stay, you know, stay wait for the helper to come. And it's not Yeah. Or the Oh, go ahead. Oh, no.

I was just gonna say, yeah. Or the I could think it's a term as paraclete. You know, that I remember the first time I came across that term greeting one of the early church fathers, and I'm like I kind of rubbed my head for a minute, and I'm like, what? What is what is that? I had to look it up.

It's a military term. Is it? Yeah. I believe so. It's, I don't here.

Hold on a second. Let me look it up. I'm gonna spell this so wrong. I always love that. Yeah.

You're probably thinking a paratrooper. You know, I might be. Give me one sec. I'm pretty sure. No.

Yeah. It's, it's of course Greek. But it's the idea of helper. Hold on. Hold on.

But there's some of the idea within it, like protector and advocate. And, the difference we I think with our modern vernacular of like, what a helper is, we kind of think of like Siri, or Alexa, a personal assistant. That's not I definitely wanna call the Holy Spirit our personal assistant. No. No.

But but when I hear the word helper Yeah. It has that has that feeling, well, help me do what I want to do. And it's more of it's the it's the advocate. It's the defender around you. It's the person remind kind of the the, you know, the coach in the boxing ring over on the corner, you know.

Like, but also, it's the there's a lot to be said about the Holy Spirit working through us to even make these truths come alive in our life. A lot of times Yeah. I Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. No.

No. It's okay. I I was just gonna say that, I had recently, just the other day, watched a video with Gavin Ortland, and he was talking to, 3 orthodox people. 2 of them, I think, were priests. The third guy wasn't sure if he I think he might have just been a layman.

And, one of the things I I liked what Gavin Ortland said was just about this idea that, it's kinda going back to something you had brought up about how the Holy Spirit working, you know, collectively in the church, but also individually too. Like, you know, I don't I don't think it's incorrect to say that, you know, that the Holy Spirit may work more in some people than others, you know, and give them certain gifts that others don't have. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And I guess, more more of what I I meant in in saying that is a lot of times, we focus on the personal we and we do have personal relationship with Jesus.

And a lot of times, we think, you know, we well, we have our gift our gift, but gifts are always talked about in community. And, that's where the Holy Spirit dwells among us. You know, it's not just inside a bin. It's, you know, it's inside of of of of you and it's inside of me. And even as we talk about scripture and which which good theology is based off of, So do you do you think, do you think that the Holy Spirit is the one who gives gifts to men?

Like 100%. Like okay. Okay. That's a good good way of looking at it. I was curious what you what your thoughts were.

Oh, yeah. Not a not a sensation or a cessation list by any means. I a 100% believe in the gifts. And, I do believe everybody at least has one. And I think it would be a fascinating study to do something on the spiritual gifts.

Only a few get talked about a lot of times, but like, you know, the gifts that are outlined in a number of different places. But I believe that every person has at least one gift when they come into Christ. Some people have multiple gifts, like you said, but it's the same giver, you know, being God. And, yeah, we prob we might differentiate on a couple of those, which would be kind of fun to talk about. But I think I think the best I think the best way to kind of land the ship or bring it to a certain spot is we just celebrated Easter, and there's so much to be celebrated around around Jesus' death, burial, resurrection.

And Yeah. The big part being hit is all of that. But one of the big parts, especially in the the terms of justification is it's his death. If he didn't die, we could not be justified. There's no way.

And I think I think it's it's a very good thing to dwell on and and have comfort in, and sleep at night because of it. Like, God declares us righteous because of Jesus. And, we can know all the words around it, but to truly accept that, and to truly live in that truth, that's abundant life. The knowledge that, that it is God himself that justifies the ungodly. And, in Romans 8, you know, when Paul is bringing that well, I know he didn't have chapters back then, but at the end of chapter 8, you know, he talks about how, you know, it is God himself who justifies.

And it's like and if he justifies, who is there to condemn? And that, I mean, that just shows you that, like, for the elect, if God justifies them, I mean, what can what can the world do about it? What can the devil do about it? I mean, there's nothing that they can do about it. What can you do about it?

You know? Like like ourselves. Yeah. Because that's where our confidence comes from. It's not from our own behavior, or our own feelings, or our own, I don't know, theological position.

It comes from Christ and Christ alone. Our justification Yeah. Being right comes from Jesus. Yeah. Yep.

Totally. Well, I appreciate you coming on, Ben. I mean, it's been a really interesting conversation. I, I think that justification is one that, I mean, I could just naturally talk a lot about just because it, you know, you see it directly affecting so many so many of our views, about other doctrines within the Bible. And I mean, that's why I do love talking about it, and I appreciate you coming on and giving your insight.

Hey, man. I appreciate you too. Alright, man. I'll talk to you later.