The Trinity

Season 1 Episode 7 Transcript

Hello, and welcome to the Restless Theologian podcast where we focus on having insightful conversations in biblical history and theology. I'm your host, Zechariah Eshack. For our 7th episode, and this will be the last episode of our first season. So I have my good friend, Cory Reckner, with me and wanted to check-in. How are you doing, Cory?

Hey. I'm good, Zech. How's everything going for you? Good. Good.

How are the kids doing? I've been meaning to ask you. They're doing good. They're doing really good. The, youngest is gonna be 2 months here soon, which is really crazy.

Yeah. Yeah. She's been doing really well. Not to, you know, put this on her family, but so far, she has been the easiest child we've had. So that's been really nice.

Nice. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, 3rd, know, 3rd time's the charm. I guess.

Yeah. This time for sure. Yeah. Yep. Well, for today's episode, we're gonna be discussing, the trinity, And I did find this one to be in particularly difficult to try to narrow the focus just because I feel like there's so many different routes that you could go with it.

For example, like, do you do we discuss the council of Nicaea? Do we discuss Old Testament, New Testament? You know? So I kinda took a little bit of notes and a little bit of an outline, but and I was watching something today too, actually, and I think that you'll get a kick out of this just because is Tim Keller one of your guys? I think you like Tim Keller.

Keller. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He passed away.

Aw. I didn't know that actually. Yeah. I think it was, I think it was last year. Really?

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I remember that.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. He was on a video with, John Piper, and John Piper is another one that, you know, I like. You know, he's Baptist and, you know, obviously, I lean more Presbyterian, but, like, I feel like John Piper is one of those guys that he's very passionate and, you know, same thing with, like, Spurgeon.

Like, even though I never you know, since it's so long ago, you don't have any audio recordings of him. You can just tell he's very passionate. And that's how some Baptist pastors are. Like, they, you know like, you can hear his tone come through when you read anything Spurgeon. I don't know if you ever had that experience, if you read any of Spurgeon.

Yeah. I got his collection of sermons Yeah. Which is like a box set. Okay. And some of those were just so long.

Right? So you can tell he, like, he got really into his messages. So yeah. Yeah. I would say passion's a good way of explaining it.

Yeah. Yeah. And very vivid, like, analogies too. Anyway, with John Piper, I feel like the same thing. I'm like, I don't, you know, I actually never really got into him much.

And, it's just I never really listened to him. But I remember a while back watching that one of his sermons, and I'm like, man, I'm like, he's actually really good. And, he always looks like he's on the verge of, like, having an an emotional crying session. You're no set about him. I love him, but Yeah.

it's funny just because he gets so into it and he's just he's so emotional in his language. And it's but I mean, it's kinda nice though at the same time because it's, you know, he's not cold, dry Mhmm. Boring. Mhmm. You know?

But, anyway, so when they were talking about the the trinity, you know, a few things that that stood out just about, like, it one of the main things I kinda picked up on and I think that this is true is just since the orthodox, the Roman Catholics, and the Protestants, you know, all acknowledge the trinity. And it's almost, like, taken for granted and almost, like, we could do a disservice of not talking about it because we're so used to it just being a given. So what what do you what do you think? Is that is that how you feel almost like we may not discuss it as much because it's just an accepted truth that, like, we may be getting a little bit, dull in our understandings just because, you know, we may talk about other doctrines so much that we kinda pass over the gloss over the trinity. Yeah.

For me personally, I think that that's true, and I think it it could be really easy, kinda like you you'd put it, you know, to just assume that because this is like an established doctrine that we have this thing called the trinity, And it's a part of church history for so it's been a part of church history for so long now. And it's almost like you said, kind of an expected or an assumed thing amongst denominations that we can just kind of be okay with it and just kind of, like, you know, accept what we're told about it where people are like, you know, there's this thing called the trinity. There's father, son, and holy spirit. And this is just how it is. And Jesus Christ is the 2nd member of the trinity.

And, you know, he's the son of God. And I think when a lot of Christians hear, you know, those statements, like you said, we're kind of just like, okay, that's how it is. Right? That's great. And I think the further you dig into it, it does get a little confusing.

It does. Yeah. And I think that's why there's almost this response where it's kind of like, you know, fearful. Like, I don't know if I should, like, learn more about this because it's already a little confusing to begin with. But if we keep researching that more and diving into the personhood of God, right, then it just gets really confusing.

So I think that, yeah, that's a good way of putting it. Like, the level of where everyone's at, even today with the trinity, it's almost kind of like, you know, we've established this doctrine. We're okay with it. And we should just believe it. And let's just keep carrying that on throughout the generations from me from here on out.

Without studying it and understanding it. Right. Yeah. Without digging even deeper into the research of it. Yeah.

That way we can, you know, more accurately defend it and be able to articulate it well to others because I think, I think that is probably the complexity that I found is, I think it's probably a lot more difficult, for Jew Jewish people, Muslims to, obviously, they don't believe in it, but, like, they don't, I think it's hard for them to understand it without saying, oh, well, you believe in 3 gods. Mhmm. I feel like that is probably gonna be what you get the most and, you know, have you ever dealt with Jehovah's Witnesses? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. I've talked with a few about the Trinity. Yeah. Yeah.

Because Yeah. You know that, you know, obviously, they're non Trinitarian. Mhmm. And, you know, if you have a conversation with them, one of the things you quickly pick up on is that, you know, they deny Jesus as being God. Mhmm.

And I've had conversations with them in this is not in any way to be, like, rude towards them or anything like that. But, I mean, obviously, I disagree with their doctrine. I mean, they are some of the nicest people and, you know, I give them credit for the fact that they're willing to wake up early on a Saturday to go door to door because that takes a lot of takes a lot of guts to do that, to go talk to strangers on, you know, on your Saturday when they could be doing anything else. So Right. Right.

But yeah. Some of the nicest people. But, anyway, I disagreed with this one guy who he would stop over periodically. And, one of the things that you kinda pick up on is, John 1. You know, like, you try to point them to John 1.

In the beginning was the word, the word was with God, and the word was God. Well, in their translation, it says the word was a god. A god. Yeah. And this is where it gets really interesting, I think, from my perspective is that you ask them I mean, there's so much stuff that goes along with that.

And so then you ask them, it's like, okay. So you believe that Jesus is not the one true God, but a God. And so it's like you either have to be considered a polytheist where you believe in multiple gods. And if there's only one true God, by your own logic, that would make Christ a false god Mhmm. By their logic.

Yeah. And so and then you try to point them to things like that. The disciples worship Jesus, the wise men worship Jesus, the angels in Hebrews 1 worship Jesus, and, you know, I and the father are 1. So I think that that is also where you get a little bit more complexity because it's like, you have to understand the Trinity, but also at the same time, you have to understand the complexity of Christ being both God and both fully God and fully man. Mhmm.

So it's like you take that also into it into consideration and then you're like, there's a lot of different areas we could, you know, go with this. Mhmm. Yeah. It's and to be completely honest, I still think sometimes I get confused by the trinity Yeah. Because it's a very heavy subject.

And as I've tried to do my own research on it, on the trinity, on God, some things make total sense to me, and other things make absolutely no sense at all. Right? Yeah. Because I think the way that all of us normally think is very, you know, binary. It's very it's black and white.

It's this or that. And to say that God is 3 but also 1, It's just not the way we are, like, geared to think most of the time. You know? Yeah. So it makes a lot of sense why other religions would say that it's completely contradictory to believe in a trinity and a trinitarian God because it does it it almost kind of appears from a distance that we're worshiping 3 different things, you know Yeah.

Rather than one thing. And that's where it gets a little little tricky to explain that. I I wanna say from a lot of the Muslim response that I've heard from Islam, they're usually a little bit more defensive about that saying you can't say that 3 in 1 is compatible. You know? There's just no way.

You know? I guess they would yeah. They would look at it and probably think it's it's contradictory. Exactly. But just because it's complex doesn't make it contradictory.

Right. And I think, like, I wanted to touch on this while I'm thinking of it, but just because I I read it a little bit ago. What you had said about, you know, there's parts that you kinda seem like you think you begin to understand and then, like, you, like, don't understand at the same time a lot of it. I don't know if this is just legend or if this is something that Augustine himself recorded, but supposedly he had taken a break from thinking about, like, the trinity and writing about it. Have you heard this?

No. No. It's just making me laugh because I'm thinking of him doing that. Yeah. Yeah.

So he decides to take a break. And, one of the things he does, he goes to, like, the shoreline and he sees this little boy just playing, doing something, and he's not sure what and what he's doing. He's taking, like, a seashell and he's going to the ocean, filling the seashell with water, and then taking it to this little hole in the sand and trying to fill it up. And so Augustine asks him, like, what are you doing? The boy responds and he says something along the lines of, I'm trying to fill this hole with the ocean, with all of the ocean.

And then Augustine had responded with something along the lines of, oh, well, this overwhelmingly large, magnificent ocean, it's not possible. Like, you you can't fit that into that tiny hole in the sand. The boy responds since you can't understand this or something like that, like, you can't understand the trinity. And it's almost like in a sense what the boy was saying that, like, the finiteness of our brain and our mind. And it's like, if you think of the ocean and that sort of analogy that the overwhelmingness of it all is, like, you know, to make the comparison that the vastness of the knowledge and wisdom and, you know, all of that as part of the ocean.

It's like, if you think about it, it's like even the ocean now, like, we we're still discovering things. There's still a lot of it that we don't understand. And it says just think of it in those terms, and it's like you're trying to fit all of that information into your brain about God. It's it's, you know, I can see the comparison there and supposedly the boy, like, had disappeared after that. So it's kind of crazy.

Like, there's some interesting parts with that. Like, I don't know if you know about Augustine's conversion, but he, real quick, wanted to mention. I think he was sitting in a garden and, I think he overheard I don't know if it was a child or a person. But anyway, he said he made a comment, take up and read. And then that's when he took up the bible and started reading it.

And the first thing that he read kind of like convinced him of Christianity, which I think is kinda kinda crazy to think about. But I don't wanna get too far off topic with that. But Sure. Sure. But, just to touch on your point about the vastness of it all and our inability to understand it.

Because you go back to that passage, I think it's maybe Paul who makes a comment about how, how the the riches and depths of your glory and, like, how unsearchable are your ways Mhmm. And ways past finding out or, you know, I'm just you know, probably butchering it right now. But I think you know what I mean. I do. I do.

And I'll say this too. I mean, I think what's really nice about and I'll bring it back to Christ again. Right? Because he's a part of the trinity. Yeah.

What's really nice about being, you know, born again and a part of the Christian faith is the trinity is something I will say, like, when you first learn about the trinity, it kind of doesn't make sense because you're like, oh, what? Like, hat doesn't sound right or something. Yeah. But the more you have a relationship with Christ and, like, you learn more things being in Christ, the trinity kinda does start to make a little bit more sense over time Yeah. With, like, the whole idea of, like, others different not functions necessarily, but there's different, like, responsibilities Yeah.

That's a good way of putting it. Responsibilities. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And how each member of the trinity carries out specific things specifically. Like like, you know, God the father didn't become human like Jesus did. Right? Yeah. The Holy Spirit didn't either, but the Holy Spirit is, like, universal because the Holy Spirit is indwelling in all believers now and all of that.

But it doesn't necessarily mean, like, it's the same thing for every member. So and I love that because that you learn more about that the longer you're in the faith, because God keeps revealing stuff to you as well, which is really cool. Yeah. So I think, like I said, you know, because that verse that Paul talks about that he's like, you know, God is just so complex. It's hard to just sum him up and explain it.

Right? He's like, no. There's depth. There's riches. There's wisdom that we're unable to find out about God because he's just so vast.

But I also think that, you know, Jesus even said, you know, if you come to me, you will understand the father's will. You will understand more about God than you would have ever learned on your own. So I think it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool that there's this relational thing always happening with the trinity. And it includes us now because, you know, we're part of the faith.

So just wanted to share that too because I will say the trinity is a very intimidating subject. Yeah. Even when you said, would you like to talk about the trinity? I'm like, yeah. For sure.

And then I kept thinking about it. I'm like, oh, wait. It's really complex. You know? Maybe I'm gonna butcher something.

Yeah. I just don't wanna. Yeah. Mess something up. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So I think going into it, it's, you know, it's ain't worth obviously, you know, there's only so much of it we can understand. Mhmm. And so I think just having that humility that, like, there's only so much.

I mean and, you know, I do think, like, going off of what you said, there's that ability for the holy spirit over time to reveal more and more about himself. Mhmm. But obviously, it's like, well, it's the inability to fully understand and comprehend God. I think that that adds to the mystery mystery and it adds to just like, it makes it, in my opinion, more valid because it's like, well, if I can fully understand God, would he really be God? Mhmm.

You know, I almost I want God to be complex. Like, I want it to be, you know, and, like, does that make sense? Almost like I want, like, I don't want an easy An easy god. Yeah. An easy god where, like, he's fully understandable because it's like, to me, it would almost seem like, oh, well, if he's that easy to understand, the you know, I don't know.

I know exactly what you're saying. Okay. I I know it's kinda hard to get it. Okay. Well and I love that you put it that way, because I think we all do kind of want an easy God sometimes.

I think we want God to be very easy to understand Yeah. To just give us what we want or just tell us right away, he's not gonna give us what we want. You know? And then, like, the longer you are in a relationship with God, you learn that God has his way of doing things. And it's very different than our way of doing things sometimes.

Yeah. But it's I don't wanna say it's magical, but it's so good, and it's so beyond how we would put things together. You know? Yeah. I mean, just even you look throughout all of scripture, and, you look at all of the, like, calls to faith.

Right? Like Abraham. Right? And you look at God calling these people out of their, like, normal way of living life, and it usually requires a ton of faith. Right?

And like uncomfortable faith. Well, I mean, how many of us if God didn't do that to us or to any of them, would we just go and do that anyway? Probably wouldn't. Right? We'd be like, no, I'm okay.

I'm just gonna tend to my sheep and, you know, have my business and make my money and, you know Do things our own way. Do things our own way. I don't wanna go out and do something that seems so incredibly, like, almost nonsensical sometimes for God. But then God takes us out of that comfort zone and shows us things throughout the whole journey. And it's it's pretty amazing because he's so far beyond us.

Yeah. And he wants to show us things that we would have never learned on our own too. So I just wanna share that. I think that's how God operates. You know?

Yeah. Yeah. Just very mysteriously just and I think that that it it is amazing. And I think I maybe brought this up before, but real quick. One of my favorite parts of the old testament is with, Joseph.

You know, the story of Joseph, obviously, thrown in a pit, sold into slavery by his own brothers, and then just all the terrible things that happened to him, getting falsely accused, getting, thrown into jail, and just, you know, suffering in jail for, I think, quite a while. And then and when he finally sees his brothers again, it just amazes me. It doesn't matter how many times I've heard it, but, like, the comment he makes is, like, you intended this for evil, but god intended it for good. Mhmm. And like you said, just the mystery of it all, and it's amazing to me that he can bring and fulfill his purposes out of evil.

Yeah. You know? But, I wanted to touch, like, on a couple passages, and, we'll knock through these real quick about, like, the plurality of persons. And I think that was something that was really stressed in, like, the council of Nicaea and obviously the Athanasian way of looking at things where, you know, you have 3 persons but one essence. So we're gonna touch base on the plurality of persons.

So this is Genesis 126. Then God said, let us make man in our image after our likeness, you know, kinda showing that plurality there. You know, who's he talking about? Like, is he talking about me and the angels or is he talking about us as in the Godhead? And then in Isaiah 68, and I heard the voice of the Lord saying, whom shall I send and who will go for us?

Then I said, here I am, send me. And, you know, who will go for us, not me. And then in the New Testament and there's a lot in the New Testament, but I'll just touch on a couple. John 1, like I said, you know, in the beginning was the word. The word was with God and the word was God.

He was in the beginning with God. So the word, which is Christ, is in the beginning with God, but he also was God, which I think is very fascinating because it's the gospel of John opens up with very trinitarian terms. Like, very you know what I mean? Like, it's clearly, like, you can tell what his stress is, how he leads with that Mhmm. And, you know, showing us the importance of it.

And then also too in, Matthew 2819 where Christ tells the disciples, you know, make disciples of all of the nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and the son and of the holy spirit. You know, putting them all on the same, you know, in the name of it's interesting to me that he didn't say it in the names of, but in the name of. I don't know, like Singular name. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I picked up on this a while back where Christ says that the scripture cannot be broken. And then if you notice, they make a point in the scriptures to bring during Christ's crucifixion that, you know, since he was already dead, it would have been normal for the Romans to break the knees. And so, like, they couldn't somehow get off the I don't know if they maybe suspected that they could possibly be taken down or take them tear themselves off. I don't know.

But, like, they would break their knees, before they would leave. Mhmm. But for Christ, since he was already dead, that they didn't do that. So it makes a note to say that none of his bones was broken. Gonna be broken.

Yeah. And that was also prophesied. I don't remember where in the old testament, but I know it was so it's like so he is the incarnation. Like, he's the word. And if you think about the scriptures being the word, it's kind of fascinating to think about where it's like this the scripture cannot be broken and then Christ's bones were not broken.

You know what I mean? Like, have you ever kinda I've never thought of it that way before, but that's that's a good that's an interesting point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's funny because, have you ever heard, a little bit of the background as to why John used that word word at the beginning of of John 1? No. So supposedly, you know, John's target audience was a little bit more broad than some of the other gospels. Is it more Greek? Like, is that why?

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And you probably get the sense of it when you read through John, but, you can kinda tell it's very philosophical. Right?

It's kinda like broad. And sometimes he'll say things like about Christ or just in general, where it's just it it's it's just so deep, and you're like, what exactly is that saying there? Right? Well, supposedly, the word word in in the beginning was the word is the word logos. Yeah.

I have heard that. Okay. And with logos, the Greeks back then during that time, they viewed Logos as kind of like this all being force that kind of governed everything. Okay. So John is like catering to that when he's describing Christ.

And he's like, yeah. Did you know that this logos that you all kind of, like, believe in is actually Jesus? Okay. And in the beginning was this logos, and he was with God. And by the way, he is God.

Right? Yeah. So it's like he's really like targeting an audience by saying that too. Yeah. So I think that's kinda cool.

That is kinda cool. Like, same thing with, like, the book of Hebrews. It's like it's speaking who you know, to the Hebrews. Hebrews. Yeah.

Yeah. it's kinda cool how they kind of how the apostles, like, kinda bring in they try to make it in such a way that to whom they're speaking that they're gonna understand. Mhmm. You know what I mean? Obviously, I think the holy spirit has a big part in that, but just the fact that they go through so so much effort to try to relate it in terms that their targeted audience would would be familiar with.

Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

They're good at God is very good at doing that too. He's he's like the ultimate communicator. You know? Yeah. Mhmm.

Yep. I think that that's why you get so many different aspects to the scriptures about when it comes to I mean, obviously, you know, he's a master of the language because, you know, he's God. But, you you know, when it comes to the complexity of the parables, the metonyms, the figures of speech, and it's just it amazes me how how well done they you know what I mean? It's just Composed very, very well. Yeah.

Yeah. Going back to what you were saying about the Greeks though Mhmm. I was watching this sprawl video and he was bringing up about how I think it was Tertullian that started, the early church father Tertullian that was speaking about the the trinity in terms of, like, I think he would use the term maybe persona or persona personae maybe. I think that's, like, the plural form of it. But basically, where he gets it from and I guess I didn't I didn't know this either that Turtullian was a little bit more of a, I think he was trained to be a lawyer Okay.

Or, like, he was trained in law. But anyway, back when they would do plays, they would have a different quote unquote persona and, like, they would have a mask and the same person could put on multiple masks. Mhmm. So they they could go from being one character into another. Right.

So I think it's kinda cool how he kind of, because I think that that's where we get the the term person. So when we think of person and personhood today, it's kind of maybe a little bit different than how they viewed it back then. But I'm probably gonna give some I don't know if crass is the right word, but like analogies where it's not gonna be perfect, but, like, just in terms that kinda help me kind of understand the trinity a little bit is thinking about, like, for example, with water with, like, the water that fills the ocean, the rivers, and the well. Like, all three of those thing like, they're in kind of different forms, if you will, but, like, it's all in its essence water. Mhmm.

And I think that, the early church did a really good job at, like, defending and trying to explain, you know, like, Homooussius, you know, of the same substance Mhmm. Of the same essence. Yeah. So it's like you have 3 persons, but you also have one essence. And, but, yeah, I'll have, I have some quotes that I picked out, just from different theologians that I thought were kind of interesting.

Here we have Herman Babink. He was a Dutch theologian. He says, the entire Christian belief system, all of special revelation, stands or falls with the confession of God's trinity. It is the core of the Christian faith, the root of all its dogmas, the basic content of the new covenant. And I did like that just because he kind of it does.

It stands or falls. Like, that is what distinguished Christianity from all other religions is the trinity. Mhmm. And if you look at any of the early creeds, the apostles creed, the Nicene Creed, the Athanasian creed, in some sense, they all relay the importance of the Trinity. Now, and then this is something I would like to bring up too is about the Trinity is that, you know, I feel like that there's times that we'll get, oh, you believe in this doctrine, this word isn't in scripture.

You know what I mean? Like like The word trinity, you mean? Yeah. The word trinity. Like like Sola Scriptura, for example, like, if we talk about that, like, obviously, there's gonna be people that are gonna be against it.

You know, that don't that don't that don't believe in Sola Scriptura. And one of the responses that you would get is that, oh, that's not in the Bible. Mhmm. You know, show me where that's said in the Bible. Right.

It's like where the word Trinity isn't in the Bible. It's accurately deduced from passages that explain it, pretty thoroughly throughout scripture. But my point being is if you're gonna attack that doctrine, I wouldn't start with that term isn't used in scripture. Mhmm. Because it's like the word Bible isn't in our Bible.

Right. Right. Trinity isn't in the Bible, but, you know, we understand what it means. But but, anyway, I think it's just, you know, it's a short term that we found we found useful Mhmm. Is basically my point.

Is that, like, you know, we can have one term and, you know, immediately recalls a whole slew of doctrine contained in that word or two words, you know, phrases. But, yeah. So there's a couple more I wanted to touch on, like, kind of in explaining the trinity as well. Augustine going back to him. He says the mind itself is an image of the trinity in that it remembers, it understands, and loves itself.

And so what he says is about remembering, understanding, and loves itself. I think that that is what makes him and maybe I'm off track off base with this, but I think that that's what makes him a strong, defender of predestination because he understands, you know, if you ever read Augustine, he uses that passage and throughout all of his writings about, it is God that works in you both to will and to do. So both there's like a willing and an action. And so that touches a lot of different things. So, like, the willing, for example, like in the trinity, you have, I think hopefully, I don't butcher this.

I was actually watching a little bit of have you ever heard of, I think it's Bishop Robert Baron? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

He's like a Roman Catholic Bishop. And I I'll watch various, you know, videos, from people with different backgrounds. I just love his name, Robert Barron. It sounds like Robert Barron, you know? Yeah.

Like he's a Robert Barron. Yeah. Yeah. Sticks out. Yeah.

I think it's funny that at the beginning of his video, he was just saying how, what did he say? He said something about how, the trinity is to it's put to preach on the trinity is the preacher's worst nightmare. And I think it's I'm like, I understand what he's saying after. And, you know, fun little, fun fact here is that, it's actually Trinity Sunday. I don't know if you knew that.

So You did mention that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good timing.

I didn't That's funny. Take that into consideration when I had scheduled this out. Yeah. What a coincidence. Yeah.

Yeah. But, yeah, was there anything that you wanted to to weigh in on, you you know, when it came to those? Oh, I know what I was gonna say. Well Mhmm. One of the other things that he had brought up and, you know, Sproul brings us up as well about, like, I think it's God the father doing, like, loving God the son and then you have the holy spirit.

So Christ, the son of God is receiving that love. And then the holy spirit is that sort of shared love between them. And I thought that that was really cool, like how, you know, they they forwarded that. I would be very fascinated to start learning and understanding, the Trinity from the Orthodox perspective. Because I mean, they believe in the Trinity as well.

And I just I don't come across as much, you know, videos about them, but, I've heard they're very strong defenders of the Trinity. Mhmm. Which makes sense because I feel like that they follow closely after Saint Athanasius. But, a little side note there is I think it's the second council of Nicaea that they they they didn't accept because, you know, the original Nicene Creed didn't, I think, said that the holy spirit proceeds from the father, but it didn't say and from the son. So it wasn't until the second council of Nicaea that they added that he proceed that the holy spirit proceeds from the father and the son.

And so I think that that's the whole Filic way controversy. I don't know a lot about it. I mean, I've only kind of touched, you know, the very surface of that. But It's funny because it sounds like it the whole doctrine of the trinity has been debated Yeah. For as long as it's, you know, been proposed.

Right? Like, because at first, yeah, the council, when I see it, did accept it. But then the second, you know, council meeting, they're like, wait a minute. You know? Let's rethink this.

Yeah. So it's kinda funny because that's how I think that's how complicated it gets sometimes. Yeah. Because, you know, it kinda like when I said I agreed to do the podcast about the Trinity, I'm like, yeah, absolutely. And then as I kept thinking about it, I'm like, wait a minute.

There's a lot going on in the trinity. So Yeah. Well You know? Yeah. Where where where to begin?

Where to begin and where to end, you know. Do can you end? I don't know because there's so much to learn about it, you know. Yeah. Yep.

Yeah. Because I I think I wanna have a separate episode about in season 2, I'm gonna probably try to do 2 separate episodes where one, I focus on the divinity of Christ, and one, I focus on the humanity of Christ. Nice. And so it's like you have that to add to the complexity of the trinity. Right.

And, because it is a part of it too. Yeah. So it makes it even more complicated. Yeah. Yep.

Yep. But going back to what you had said about, like, understanding the Trinity, like, obviously, obviously, as a believer Mhmm. You start to understand it more and you feel like the Holy Spirit kind of reveals more of himself, like about the truth about who he is. Mhmm. I do love this from AW Pink.

He says that each of the 3 persons in the blessed trinity is concerned with our salvation. With the father, it's predestination. With the son, propitiation. With the spirit, regeneration. The father chose us, the son died for us, and the spirit quickens us.

The father was concerned about us, The son shed his blood for us. The spirit performs his work within us. What the one did was eternal. What the other did was external. What the spirit does is internal.

Man, then what a what a statement all that was. I know. That's a lot that's a lot of information. Yeah. That's pretty good.

The 3 or 4 sentences he and I don't know a lot about Arthur Pink. I mean, I when I first started to get into more of, like, reformed theology, it's just some of the stuff he says, I I think he has a such a way of putting it in layman's terms Mhmm. That makes it very understandable. Yeah. That was very understandable what he just said there.

Yeah. Yeah. And it and it shows you, like, the the function that each one is performing, the importance of it, the complexity of it, and then also the unity of it of them working together to to bring about a certain purpose. Right. Right.

And I think that that is another reason why, like, you know, I know I just I asked you about whether or not we should discuss limited atonement sometime too. Mhmm. Because that's another one. I think that, you know, it gets people frustrated and angry. If you think about it, the Armenians and the Calvinists, they both believe in limited atonement.

But what they mean by it is different. Right. So it's like, if you don't limit the atonement, you're in you're you're by definition, you would be like a universalist. You would believe believe that the atonement is meant for everybody and, effective for everybody. Christ died for Judas as much as he did for Peter.

Mhmm. And so the question is is, you know because I mean, they wouldn't believe that anyone goes to hell. So or if they do, it's not they're not in hell forever Right. Which would make them a universalist. So it's like, I've I've actually it's it's kinda fascinating to think about how, across denominational lines, you know, you come into some protestants that are universalist, and you come in, you know, come in contact for some that are, you know, more of, I'm trying to think of the term for it.

I don't know if particularist is maybe the term, but basically, you know, that they believe in limited atonement. And it's like same thing with Roman Catholics. You get some that are very, you know, like, you have, like, pope John Paul the second. He spoke in very universalistic terms. And then you have someone that's a little bit more of, like, it's a pope Benedict, Ratzinger, the pope, the pope before Francis.

Mhmm. He he seemed like he was more conservative on that front where he seemed like, you know, he spoke in definitions of, like, I think he'd talk about hell and stuff. You know? Yeah. I I don't know a lot about the guy.

I'm just saying that, like, it is fascinating to think of, like, across denominational lines. You see how these doctrines are at play. But, yeah. No. I just I love that quote by Pink.

He just, really has a good way of explaining how they're all working together. Yeah. And that's that's one of the biggest things about the Trinity too is, like, their multifunctionality and how they are always working together. Right? And I love what did he say?

He said, what one did was eternal, what the other did was external, and what the spirit does is internal. Like, what a great specifics of that, of of all of those workings, that's what I think God reveals to you more and more over time too. How each one does things like that, like how the father's works, eternal, how Christ was, you know, external, and then how the spirit is constantly working internally. I'm like, I think that that is what the trinity is showing us Yeah. And will show us forever from here on out.

You know? Yeah. And I think that that's why I've always been a pretty staunch defender of predestination is because not it's not left up to chance. Mhmm. You know what I mean?

Like, there's no like, when you think about how before the foundation of the world that he chose us in him before the foundation. Like, when you really think about the gravity of that Yeah. And just about how like, that's why I never you know, like, with the Armenian system, for example, and I don't wanna get too far because that's a whole another we can have a whole another episode about that. But Right. Right.

But I feel like it leaves almost too much up to chance where God is left to rely on you and your response a little bit too much where it's like he doesn't have the ability to change your mind. Mhmm. He doesn't have that power because he has to he has to he could do everything within his power to try to bring you to the faith, but he cannot he cannot, he cannot overpower your free will. Right. Right.

You know what I mean? And it's like, well, you're kind of almost making God subject to you and your will because it's like, well, if he can't change your will then I don't know. You know what I mean? I I do. And it almost kind of what we had brought up earlier, the whole idea of create or, like, you know, imagining a god that is so much like us Yeah.

And, you know, is is predictable Yeah. And kind of, like, operates just how we operate always. And operates off of chance too. Like, he he doesn't have control over the outcome. He doesn't have control over the outcome.

He's very weak sometimes because, like you said, he can't exert authority over us because we're just too sinful or something. Well, yeah. It's like he he he longs to bring you to the faith, but, like, he he doesn't have the capacity to do it. Yeah. And I think that this is where we talk about God's will where it's like there's different ways of God I mean, to put it in a broad terms, God does have one will.

Mhmm. But at the same time, I think that there is I don't know how to properly phrase this, but almost like there's different aspects to his will where it's like there's a decreed of will where it's like, you know, he decrees that these are the 10 commandments and that you shall not break them. Right. So it's a part of his will, but you still do break them. Yeah.

So you know what I mean? Like, so there's different not have power over that. You know? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So I guess that there's, like, complexity in the different I know I just sound like I'm making a contradiction here, but different aspects to his will because it's like, well, the response you will get is that, you know, he doesn't doesn't will that any should be lost or longs for all to be saved and stuff like that. So I think you have to, you know, take the complexity of God into consideration when you're thinking about these topics. Yes. I also think it helps too because we're talking about the trinity.

Yeah. I also think it really helps, to understand because it it really it illustrates a little bit more about, like, the personhood of God Yeah. To understand, like, he he does have a will. Right? He has emotions.

He has, you know, he plans things out and all that too, just like all of us do as people. But there is, like, this personhood about God that's very relational. Yeah. Right? I mean, the trinity is just one big relationship.

And the church, I I should say, when somebody starts believing in Christ, and they have, like, regenerative faith, it becomes a relationship between the person and Jesus Christ, AKA the trinity. Right? You know, getting connected to the whole trinity. But that's all relational, and that's all Yeah. It's like connective tissue.

It's like, you know, it's it's all connected together. But I do think that where it gets tricky, because we're talking about, you know, bringing up the whole predestination thing too. It's like we have a can't you break that? You know? Can't you break it maybe by sinning or something?

Yeah. It's like, well, I mean, I once again, we've talked about this before on this podcast. Yeah. And I don't wanna get too off off subject. No.

And it was my fault. I brought it up. No. No. It's okay.

I I think it's really important because it does, it it's something that I think should be talked about regularly because we all sin. We all mess up. Yeah. And it's very easy to assume that when we fail God, that God gives up on us at some point. You know?

And I'm like, I'm sorry. I just can't subscribe to that because of the cross. Right? I'm like, the whole purpose of the cross, which the trinity planned all that out, you know, was for saving grace, for humanity, you know, for those who put their faith in Christ. Right?

And the cross is an eternal act. It can't be, you know, removed. Right? I heard I heard a theologian put it this way. He's like, you know, if God was gonna give up on you, he would have already given up on you.

Right? Yeah. But the fact that he's hasn't, the Holy Spirit isn't gonna leave you. He's in dwelling in you. That was an eternal sanction.

Right? I'm, like, it's just it it just demonstrates a lot about how much love the trinity truly has for us for creation. Yeah. For us as people. So I think it's all tied together.

Yeah. Yeah. And, well, Peter, for example, you know you know, I know I brought this up before by him, you know, denying Christ. And to me, it's like, well, is is that not, you know, in my opinion, one of the greatest sins because it's apostasy in a denied in a sense, you know, you deny Christ. And yet what does Christ do?

You know, he, you know, he forgives him, and then he also, tells Peter he's praying for him that his faith may not fail. Mhmm. And I think that that's what he does also too in the garden of, I guess, I'm I think it's maybe in the garden of Gethsemane when he prays his high priestly prayer. You know, he prays for us to be 1 just as him and the father are 1. Mhmm.

So, you know, he's wanting that sort of unity for us. But, I mean, if you really think about that, though and sometimes people too, like, will be like, oh, well, he's just praying for his disciples. But I love how he goes on to say, you know, I'm not I'm not praying for these only, but for those who hear and believe, like, through their word. Mhmm. So it extends out to, I think, in my opinion, to all of believers.

So it's like if you think about that he's praying for us, he prayed for us and probably continues to pray for us in heaven, then it's like that should give us encouragement, I think, because I mean, if Christ is praying for us, I mean, what can you know what I mean? Like, what can overcome and overpower that? Yeah. Who can stand against us? Yeah.

Yeah. God is for us. Who can be against us? Yep. Yep.

Exactly. Yeah. So, there's a couple brief points I wanted to bring up about, the first three creeds. You know, like I said, the apostle's creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian creed. And I didn't include, these in your, like, your notes, but, like, I just kind of picked the parts that we're talking specifically about kind of like the trinity where, like, in the apostles creed, I believe in God the father almighty.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his son, his only son, our lord. I believe in the Holy Spirit. The Nicene Creed, we believe in 1 God and in 1 Lord Jesus Christ, and we believe in his Holy Spirit. And then you get to the Athanasian creed. And if you ever read you know, I didn't I won't read the entire thing because it is a little bit lengthier than the apostles creed and Nicene creed.

But if you ever have you ever read it? The Anatomy A while ago. While ago. Okay. It's been it's been years, but, yeah, I I did it.

Yeah. I have this book. It's a, it's a liturgy book. It's be thou my vision, I think. Okay.

John Gibson wrote it, and he's got, that one. He's actually got 3 devotionals that are really good that I mean, I haven't I don't have the third one. I'm just assuming that it's good. Okay. Yeah.

But, what I love about it is it goes through, I think, you know, it has, prayers from early church fathers, some of the reformers. It's got, the Nicene Creed, the Athanasian creed. So you read bits of the Athanasian creed and Nicene creed, like, each day. And, I found it to be really helpful, but the Athanasian creed is definitely the one I think that that more explicitly and it sounds a little bit redundant when you're reading it, but I I I realized why they why they're doing it and how important it is. Mhmm.

I'll just read a little bit of the beginning, part some of the beginning parts of it. It says whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the Catholic faith. Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtlessly perish eternally. Now this is the Catholic faith. So they they're telling you what the Catholic faith is.

It is that we worship 1 God in Trinity and the Trinity in unity, either blending their persons nor dividing their essence. Mhmm. And I I put down here some kind of general understandings of the term Catholic. Sometimes, you know, I feel like when it's used, it's either meaning universal, all embracing, and also it could, you know, mean the true Christian church of all times in all places. And I feel like that that that that is a little bit of what, you know, and this is from my perspective, you know, it's just I think that that is why protestants can hold to the the first three creeds and why, like, for example actually think it might be the Orthodox.

They might only hold to 2 of them. But basically, my my point being is that they all use the term Catholic. And I understand that not everyone's understand like, there's the confusion of, like, are they simply meaning Roman Catholic, or are they talking about an all encompassing thing? Because it's like you have the Orthodox, you know, they they say that they were one true Catholic church. Mhmm.

So I guess it's important to kinda make a distinction. But in my opinion, it's like, well, with the Catholic church universal, you know, like it says at all times in all places, I think that a defining feature of that is the trinity. Mhmm. So I think that if if a church doesn't accept the the trinity, I think that that's foundational to what Christianity is. Right.

And it's like, I don't care what you call yourselves, but if you don't accept that truth of Christianity, then you have no right to call yourself Catholic or have the or that you have Catholicity with other believers. Yeah. Yeah. I think if if you were to go in that direction too, if you were to deny one of the 3 members of the trinity for some odd reason Yeah. It's weird because, I mean, something's missing with your faith almost.

You know? Yeah. I mean, you could you could say all day long, like, oh, you know, I believe in Yahweh, but I don't believe in Christ. Right? Oh, well, that's a problem.

Right? Yeah. To to consider yourself a Christian, which most people that would say they're not Christian probably subscribe to I believe in God or I believe in Yahweh or whatever, but like not Jesus. Right? Or like the the holy spirit.

Right? Because like you'd mentioned, I think Jehovah's Witnesses, they don't really believe the the holy spirit is an actual person. Yeah. They think the holy spirit's like a spirit or like a like an energy, like a force that just kinda like, you know, whatever, does stuff, rather than like, oh, he's he is a personhood and he indwells believers, like, as a person. Right?

Right. But if you deny that, then you're really kinda cutting off part of God. Yeah. And then the same with the father. Right?

I mean, to even say that God, there's like this fatherhood of God. I think if you cut that off, then there's also something wrong kinda like and I think, you know, I I don't wanna, you know, divvy away from your point too much here. But No. You're good. The whole idea of, like, like, removing the, like, governorship of God and how God, like, governs things and how he's able to, like, you know, be like a judge, especially an eternal judge.

Yeah. If you take that aspect away from God, which is a part of the trinity, then you are removing a huge part of what God actually does regularly, you know Yeah. As as, you know, an executive headship. Right? So I think that if you take away any of the aspects of how the trinity operates and and like you'd mentioned, their function functionality, how they co labor together Yeah.

Then you are just missing something about God, and there's something missing in your faith. And there's usually some weird reason why people maybe go in that direction. Right? I personally kind of think it's, you know, from the enemy. I think the enemy loves to have people, you know, say Jesus isn't God or, you know, the Trinity isn't real or yeah.

Yeah. He's just a prophet or, you know, like, maybe a good teacher. Yeah. One of the other things I wanted to touch on real quick Mhmm. Before we, end is that I think some people, you you know, and I've been asked this before actually by an anonymous person that they had asked me about, you know, like, who do you pray to, out of the trinity?

And, you know, we talked about that Yeah. On another episode. But one of the other things that they had asked me was about, like, isn't Christ not as great as the father because he submits to the father's will. And real quick, and I I had mentioned and I think that this is a little bit of misunderstanding. I know that this isn't gonna be popular, you know, obviously in today's age.

But, like, you know, like, wives submitting to their husbands and scripture talks about that as Yeah. You know, the church submits to Christ, as Christ submits to God the father. You know, there's a natural order there that God has has designated. Mhmm. But I just had brought up to him, and I'm like, just because one is submissive doesn't make them lesser.

Mhmm. Doesn't make them a let lesser like, I don't see Christ as being lesser than God the father. Mhmm. It's just about function. And it's like same thing with husband and wife.

I don't see the wife as being lesser, but I see that the wife submits to the husband. Sorry. I lost my train of thought. But, like saying. Yeah.

But, yeah, you see what I'm saying? Like like, I'm not, like, I think that in today's day and age, like, obviously, that's gonna be offensive Right. To some people. And, but, like, but when you really think about it, it's like in those terms as a Christian, it's like, well, Christ is submitting to God the father, but we're not saying that He's lesser. He's lesser Yeah.

Because of it. Right. And I think that that's an important point. It's a great point. And it's funny because when you I you just spurred all these all these thoughts into my head when you were bringing up that analogy.

Yeah. Like, think of the idea of a marriage. Right? Right. When a when a, you know, husband and wife, if they get together, they get married, and they're married.

Okay. Well, within the marriage, one's considered the husband, one's considered the wife. Right? If any one of us, you know, from an outside perspective saw that marriage and it was unhealthy, we'd be pretty noticeable. Right?

Let's say, like, the whole idea of submission. Right? Because that word already strikes a triggering response from a lot of people, submit. Right? People think, like, slaves or something immediately.

Yeah. That's where their mind goes to. Yeah. Yeah. Especially, like you said, nowadays.

Right? But the whole idea of, like, submitting. Like, let's say there's an imbalance in the marriage. So the wife only submits forever. Right?

And she gets no words out ever. She never gets to talk to her husband. He's like, you do not talk. Right? I'm her husband.

We would all look at them like that is not a good relationship. Healthy relationship. Yeah. Healthy or vice versa. Right?

If the wife never let the husband talk, if yeah. And I'm using talking as an example, but let's say that, like, she just didn't let him do anything. Yeah. She's like, you're not leaving the house. You're just staying here all day and you don't get any freedom.

We'd be like, that is not a healthy relationship. It's just as true with the trinity godhead. Right? They submit at the proper time for specific occasions. Right?

Because they're working together always. In any marriage or any healthy relationship, there's always gonna be a point of submission from one party or another, right, in order to keep a relationship going really well. You know? Yeah. Because it's a sacrifice.

It's a sacrifice towards another person. And I think within the trinity, especially, I don't wanna get too confusing with it, but within the trinity, there's always this compatibility always happening with the submission. Right? Like, Jesus submitted to the father's will to give his life up for humanity on the cross. Right?

But that was his own submission. Right? Yeah. And Yeah. I think that there's there's unity in their in their will.

And I think that that makes it is what's perfect about it is because that that's why there's not friction there because their wills are the same. Right. You know, like Christ says at John 6, I've come down you know, I think he says I've come down to do not my own will, but my father's will or Mhmm. Or he I I don't know if I have that. Well, I do know that John 6 does say I know that that's a passage problem.

Yeah. Yeah. I think with John 6, he says yeah, I think it is John 6. He says, I've not come down to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me.

Mhmm. That of all that he's given me, I should lose none, but raise it up on the last day. Yeah. I think that's John 6. It's either John 6 or John 10.

But anyway but so he says what his father's will is, and he's obviously agreeing with that will because he's enacting and carrying it out. Mhmm. So he's submitting to God the father's will. But I think that, like like like going back to what you were saying about a marriage, and I think that that's obviously, like, the importance of marriage in Christianity is about how, you know, the elect believers are the bride are the bride and Christ being the bride groom. Mhmm.

And that shows you the importance of, you know, the church submitting to Christ. Mhmm. Because it it shows us that, you know, marriage relationship. Yeah. And I think that that's all the more importance why Christians when they are married that they should think about these things and how important it is because it's a reflection.

Like, I think that a husband's love for his wife should be a reflection of Christ's love for the church. Mhmm. And I think that I think the reason why, like, for example, you know, I don't know. We kinda touched I don't wanna get too far off track, but we kinda touched on that a little bit when we talked about the eschatology episode. Yeah.

You know, about how, you know, Revelation's kind of a divorce decree from Israel and God taking a new bride. And I think one that's gonna be everlasting because I think that, going back to I think it's maybe it's Isaiah, about I'll put a new heart in you, teach you to walk in my commands, and that you depart not from me. Mhmm. That mean Israel's failure was departing from God. But I think that with the Holy Spirit, when he comes and he indwells all believers, that they would they will not depart from him.

Right. So I think that that's what will make it a perfect union in the marriage. I don't know. You know? Yeah.

I agree. And marriage is such a powerful example of, like, a relationship in general. Right? Because when you when 2 people get married, they're making vows. They're literally just consecrating.

They're they're becoming one. It's all about oneness. You know? Yeah. And it's it's exemplary of not only the trinity, but like you'd said, of Christ and the church.

And I think marriage is such a powerful example, especially if a marriage is going well. Yeah. It's it's exactly you know, it's like demonstrating exactly what goes well all the time with god. Right? And how Jesus, you know, is our bridegroom, like he said.

A lot of people have trouble imagining that, but it's just an analogy. It's just an example Yeah. Of of a leader, right, which a husband should be a leader in a marriage. It's just how it should be, you know, leading the bride in in a good direction. You know?

Yeah. And the trinity operates like a co equal marriage. Right? Because like we talked about, you know, they all like, every member of the god, excuse me, Godhead has their own function. But, you know, they carry out tasks, and like you said, they submit to each other's wills too.

Yeah. Yeah. And going back to, what something you said, it reminded me of Herman Babink when he talks about, because he saw the the trinity kind of displayed in other ways. I know it may not be a perfect example, but he would bring up a husband, wife, and a child. Mhmm.

You know what I mean? Like, you can kind of even see a reflection of the trinity in that because it's like you have a husband, you have a wife, and you have a child. Mhmm. You know, like, all 3 have different functions. And I thought that that was really cool how he brought that up.

And and, you know, and I know that that's not a perfect example, but, like, you kind of see the how they all work together Yeah. Like, how relatively It's almost marriage. Yeah. Especially. Yeah.

And how with the trinity, it's almost like it is a it is a family almost in a sense. If if I can use that term, I mean, I don't wanna misspeak. But Mhmm. One of the things I wanted to end on was, you know, speaking of Herman Babink. And I think that the trinity is one of those things that with other believers, I think that we can be joyful and encouraged by the fact that while we do have a lot of differences with other believers, you know, of different denominations, I think that the trinity is something that we can have, like, obviously common ground on and have common history on that, like, we respect from the early church.

Mhmm. And, but anyway, Herman Babin says that which unites all true Christians is always more than that which separates them. And I did love that just because when you think about the Holy Spirit the holy spirit and his work in the lives of believers Mhmm. That, you know, we may not all be in communion with one another in our denominations, but, you know, there is something greater that, you know, I think it's Augustine City of God. You know, it's a it's a it's a spiritual thing.

You know what I mean? That Yeah. That is uniting. So but yeah. Anything any other notes before like, any other thoughts before we conclude?

So many. I know. I feel like we've just opened the the the door here. Yeah. Just opened Pandora's box.

Right? Seriously. Yeah. So I would say, for anybody listening, one illustration that I feel and and you had said something very similar to this at the beginning of the podcast. But if anybody has trouble with the concept of the trinity, I'd heard a really great example from a guy.

He is no longer with us, but his name is Nabil Qureshi. I've heard you bring him up before. Yeah. Yes. Yes.

So Nabil Qureshi, he was a part of the, like, Ravi Zacharias Ministries for a while. Unfortunately, you know, that kinda took a really sour turn with that whole thing. But Yeah. That's Yeah. And I and I never I never really got into him much.

I mean, I I know I was aware of who he was Yeah. But I never watched yeah. And it's pretty It's heartbreaking what happened with that whole thing. Crazy. Yeah.

It stinks. But Nabeel Qureshi, as far as we know, he was pretty separate from all of that, you know, junk that was going on. Yeah. But Nabil Qureshi, I actually watched a sermon he'd given on the trinity, and it was one of the most understandable things I'd ever heard in my life Really? About, like, anything.

Yeah. It was so well said. And if anybody, you know Was was he the one that was a former Muslim? Yes. He was like an he was like an extremely devout Muslim too.

Which makes sense why he probably understood it well is because he that was probably one of the first things he attacked about Christianity. And when he probably studied it Mhmm. He probably studied it a lot because he was opposed to it. And so He was opposed to it, and I think he had a lot of his Muslim brotherhood attack him once he started converting over Okay. And challenging him on that specifically.

So he had to, like, come up with a good response. Yeah. When these when these guys would come at him and just say, how could you believe this contradictory idea of this, you know, 33 God thing. Right? Yeah.

And he had such a good illustration. He said, if you need to land somewhere with the trinity, just think of it as God is 3 in person, 1 in being. Right? So 3 in person, 1 in being. And I like how you said it.

You said 3 in person, 1 in essence. So it's almost kinda like so similar with essence and being. Yeah. But if you just think of God as an entity, like a one being, but with 3 persons included within that being, I'm like, you're gonna be okay. You know?

Because it's a very complicated subject. I I feel like we've only really started talking about it here. Really touched the surface of it. Yeah. Yeah.

So if but if you need a good illustration, I think that that's probably the best one I've ever heard. So Okay. I'd say that was a a good one from Nabil. Yeah. Yeah.

That's great. I'm glad you shared that. I, I definitely think in starting to kinda a little bit more dive deeper into this before, our episode. I definitely think it's gonna be something I'm gonna try to just dive deeper into and learn more about because you don't really think about how much you're ignorant of on this subject until you start to to I don't know, read other people on it. And you're like, man, this is something I I as a Christian, and if it's foundational to our core beliefs, it's something that we should know.

And I under understand we're not gonna fully grasp and comprehend Mhmm. The complexity of who God is, But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to learn and understand the parts of himself that he's revealed to us in the scriptures. But Absolutely. Yeah. Thanks, Cory.

I really appreciate you coming on. It's been a great episode. Honestly, it's, it just keeps getting better and better when we have these conversations. So I love it. Thanks again for coming in.

Of course. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Zech. Appreciate it, man. Yeah.