The Lamb of God

Season 2 Episode 3 Transcript

So this is from Spurgeon. The Arminians say Christ died for all men. Ask them what they mean by it. Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of all men? They say, no, certainly not.

We ask them the next question. Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of any man in particular? They answer no. They are obliged to admit this if they are consistent. They say, no.

Christ has died that any man may be saved if and then follow certain conditions of salvation. Now who is it that limits the death of Christ? Welcome to the Restless Theologian podcast where we focus on having insightful conversations in biblical history and theology. I'm your host, Zechariah Eshack. For a 3rd episode of season 2, we will be discussing the atonement of Christ.

Today, I'm happy to have with me my good friend, Cory Reckner, who's been on quite a few episodes before. So, Cory, how are you doing today? Pretty good. Good. How's it going, Zech?

It's going really good. How are the kids doing? They're good. Good. They're they're keeping us busy.

Yeah. I'm sure. Yeah. How how old, is your youngest? Youngest is now 4 months.

Wow. So ain't that crazy that went by really fast? That did. And the middle child is a year and a half, and the oldest is 3. Okay.

So perfect little spectrum there of 3 and under. You know? Yeah. They're gonna be really close together For sure. Close in age.

There's quite a gap, between me and my brothers. You know, I have, have 6 brothers. So there's quite a, you know, varying age ranges going on there. Yeah. The second to last kid.

So Okay. Yeah. Nice. Yep. But yeah.

So what what we're gonna focus on today is definite atonement. Now we're probably gonna bring up a little bit of universal atonement just to contrast it. And I do think that when it comes to the atonement, there's limited atonement for the Calvinist and limited for the Arminians. And, but once the the extent of the atonement, once the effect of the atonement. So it's kind of I I don't know if you I know I remember giving you a book, the 5 Points of Calvinism.

And I I was actually looking for that book when I was trying to study this, and I couldn't find it. I know I had a couple copies, and I've probably given given them both away just because I've read through it. And, but I remember being kind of helpful when it talked about that specifically because I think the Arminian position is a little bit more of, like, universal atonement, but not universal salvation. Mhmm. Is that how you think of it is is more of like because the universal atonement is more of like Christ died for all men.

And right before, you came over actually, I was I I kinda thought back to the Lombardian definition, I think is what it's called. I'll have to look it up real quick. So it's the Lombardian formula. And I had said this previously and not really realized that it's not exactly the most accurate. I understand the message it's trying to convey.

So have you ever heard of it before? Not. No. Okay. So it says that Christ died for all sufficiently, but Christ died for the elect efficaciously.

Okay. So what I've kinda picked up on is that when I was reading about it, it almost seems to be a little bit more of of a universal atonement. You know what I mean? And it's almost unhelpful because I do know that I I think it was might have been Saint Thomas Aquinas maybe held to it. I'm not sure if he actually said that formula, but, but it you know, when you click Google search, it can tell you that there's notable theologians that had believed this, even reformed theologians that use it to try to make it sound helpful.

Do you have any thoughts on it? So it's interesting because it does seem like almost as if there are 2 different messages, you know, going out, like one for each one of those concepts. Right? Like universal atonement or universal salvation. Right?

Yeah. Or the exact opposite of both. Right? Limited or limited. And it is interesting because both make sense.

The hard thing to wrap your mind around though is, you know, what what could be, like, more true out of either one of those ideas Yeah. Based off of, like you said, soteriology. Right? Like, the whole idea of salvation history and people that have been saved, like, what they have to say about it. You know?

To me, it's a little confusing because the idea of salvation is pretty easy to understand. You're like, okay, if it's Christ that came to the world to save people, He gave his life as an offering, and he saved those who would believe on him. Yeah. But then you kinda broaden that and say, okay. But does that also mean that he gave his life as an offering for every single person out there, right, who's ever existed?

Or maybe who, you know, with the with the idea of, like, maybe people that never got to experience life, right, like unborn children, did he die for them as well? You know? Right. And it just gets really confusing because it's like, okay. So who did Jesus actually specifically die for?

Right? That's yeah. I I think that's the overall question that is being asked Yeah. That when you really start looking into it, with the Lombardian, definition or formula Mhmm. What I think is maybe how they're trying to preserve something where I think they're maybe trying to preserve the idea that we're not saying or at least maybe they're saying that Christ isn't his atonement on the cross could have saved everybody.

Like like, that's the the value, the intrinsic value of his sacrifice. Yeah. And I think that that is what their side is trying to preserve. Like, maybe they're worried that if we say and hold too limited atonement, that, like, if we say Christ side for specific people, then we're devaluing his atonement and, like, the capabilities of it. Right.

Right. That makes sense. But I think if you open it up to that universalistic universalistic can I say that? Is that a Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a word. Yeah. But, like, I think if you hold to that view, well, I think it it it kind of sneaks in there with that formula in my opinion.

Because when I really started to read it right before he came over, I was like, I can see what's being said here. Like, you're trying to almost soften the blow of the idea of limited atonement because it may be, they they just think it's unfair, I guess, is a good way to put it. Yeah. It almost seems like it is unfair too. I mean, to think that maybe Christ's offer of salvation could possibly be limited to just a specific set of people throughout all of history Yeah.

In the future. It does seem like it could be unfair. But I also think that that and and maybe we could dive into this a little bit. Sure. I don't wanna derail from where you'd like to go.

But just I I think from, like, a first perspective, it is unfair. Because you're like, oh, that's like, you know, choosing teams with the dodgeball game. Right? You're like, oh, I choose them. I choose them.

Don't choose them. And then, you know, the left the the rest of them are just left for the other team. Right? Right. It almost just kinda seems like God is being picky and choosy in selecting specific people and the other people he just couldn't care less about Yeah.

Or couldn't care more about. Right? Couldn't care about. He just couldn't care about them. But I think that is like a first glance perspective.

Because as you go further into not only the heart of God throughout the scriptures, you also see more about, you know, the trinity. You see more about how God actually does things and how Jesus even taught, you know, the sun rises on the good and evil. You know, God is providing for every single person on this planet, whether we can acknowledge it or even recognize it or not. Yeah. It's happening.

You know, the fact that, you know, we were ever given a chance at life already is like a provision of God saying, here's a gift of life. A lot of people don't view it that way. They think, like, oh, life's a curse and all that. But I mean, as you get to experience the benefits of life and, like, the good things in life, you recognize there are a lot of good things that, you know, come from God. And I think that if we just stay at this whole, God is, you know, unfair.

Right? My wife and I actually had a really good conversation about this yesterday. Really? Okay. Yeah.

And we both kinda didn't agree with each other on where we stood on things. But it was a good deep conversation because I think it's a necessary conversation Right. Is to talk about the fairness of God because that's exactly what it seems like this debate is about. Yeah. Like you just said, you know, it is God choosing some people for atonement?

Is that what's actually happening first off? And then secondly, if that's true, is that fair? Because it doesn't seem like it. Right? Yeah.

At face at face value. At face value. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So I'll I'll come back to this. Mhmm. But, something you had previously said made me think of a conversation I had had with, a Roman Catholic that I know. Love talking to him. Mhmm.

But it it is interesting to me that within Protestantism and Roman Catholicism, you do have some within both groups that believe in universalism. Mhmm. And then some within both groups that hold to more there isn't universal salvation. Right. You know, like, just basically the rejection of universalism.

Mhmm. So I think that that's important to be said because it's like I've talked to Roman Catholics that are a lot more of, like, you know, a little bit more traditionalist, a little bit more of and I've talked to priests. There was a priest I had talked to in Akron at Saint Sebastian. Further conversation with him, it be quickly became apparent to me that he believed in universalism. And, you know, one of the conversations I had with another Roman Catholic person that I know that that's a universalist, you know, he basically was, like, oh, everyone will eventually make their way to heaven, which is exactly what the priest said.

It doesn't matter who it was, doesn't matter what they did, doesn't matter what religion they were. Mhmm. Everyone eventually makes it their way to heaven. What incentive does an unbeliever have to join a Christian denomination at all Mhmm. If they think that, well, there's salvation outside of Christ.

I'm like, what do you make of those people who have never heard the gospel call? Some tribe out over, you know, in Africa or something. They they've never let's say, they've never heard the gospel. And I said, but if you believe that it's because of their rejection when they offer are offered the gospel and they reject it, and therefore, that's the reasoning upon which they're damned to hell. I'd say it's better for me to not tell them about the gospel.

Mhmm. Because if they're going to heaven anyway, I'm like, I would just rather, like, how complicate it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

If that is really true, I would be be doing them at this service because if they're on the fast track to heaven, you know, or a missionary comes up and preaches the gospel to them, then it's like, well, then they have an or they have a an option for rejecting it. Mhmm. And so I I think also too, I think it devalues the importance of missionaries and the sacrifices that they have made, even at their own lives, you know, to spread the good news and spread the gospel because Mhmm. Why would they do that if they think that those people are already going to heaven? Right.

Right. So Yeah. It almost just kind of, you know, erases, like, the reality of, like, moments of salvation where somebody becomes what Jesus says, what he calls being born again. Yeah. It's like, if somebody in my opinion, and it's just an opinion, but I I read that passage where Christ is talking to Nicodemus.

And Nicodemus is just perplexed by half of the things that Jesus is saying. Jesus is like, you can't enter the kingdom of God unless you're born again. Right? And Nicodemus is like, what are you talking about? He's like, you can't be born twice.

You know? Yeah. You can't come out of your mother's womb and then go back in and come back out again. And Jesus is like, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about a spiritual rebirth.

You know? Yeah. Which is kind of perplexing because you're like, okay. So like you mentioned, maybe the the tribe in Africa. Right?

They go their whole lives without ever, quote, unquote, getting that opportunity for that to happen. Right? Right. My argument with that kind of mindset is I think it's really easy to project that God isn't speaking to that tribe in Africa, like, ever. You know?

And there are just passages in scripture where it doesn't seem like sometimes that's even possible. You know? Like, Paul says there's natural revelation. Right? They're in Romans.

He's Yeah. I guess it would be the question of Yeah. Yeah. There's that natural revelation, but I think it's the special revelation that is specifically designed, you know, because since faith comes from hearing and hearing of the word of God Right. Right.

Where it's like I don't believe someone could come to salvation outside of outside the gospel. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it it's not just, oh, there must be a God out there, therefore that person is saved. You know what I mean? Like I know what you're saying.

Have that logic. And yeah. That and that's I think where I was kinda trying to go with that too is just this whole idea. The one passage that Peter, says that always stood out to me is that God is impartial. Yeah.

That whole concept of, like, he there's nothing that slips past him. You know? So and and, yeah, to, like, support, you know, your thought there too, it's just this whole idea of, like, the gospel is what actually brings somebody to Christ Yeah. And saves them. Natural revelations only gonna take you so far, even with special revelation when somebody hears the gospel, unless they believe on it, you know, there's just no indication in scripture that they're gonna be saved.

Right? Right. So, yeah, it's it's it's totally like a you have to make the decision at some point. I wanna go into this is gonna get very quote and scripture heavy like a lot of these episodes have been in this season. So I wanna run through these, just to give you some scripture proofs.

We'll do that, and then we'll go over a couple of early church father quotes, and then also some quotes from the reformers. And I think that we're gonna try to break them down. But I'll run through the scripture proofs real quick. So we have John 1011. I am the good shepherd.

The good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep. John 179, I pray for them. I'm not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. So God the father gave God the son a special people, and he preserves them and prays for them. Mark 1045, for even the son of man came not to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.

Okay. I wanted to stop there. This was something I had thought of this morning too, just in kind of preparing for this episode. Have you ever seen the movie Man on Fire? Is that with Denzel Washington?

Yeah. It's older. I've never seen it, but I know what it is. Yeah. Okay.

You've never seen it? I don't think so. Oh, man. I love Denzel. I Does it have, the girl, the Dakota Yeah.

Kinda girl? Yes. She was in, the new equalizer with him. Yeah. Yeah.

I saw that one, but I didn't see Man on Fire. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was really cool that Dakota Fanning came back and they had gotten together for a movie movie again. They seem like they would be friends in real life.

It's kinda cool. Yeah. But anyway, in that movie, what happens is, you know, he gets paid. He goes down to Mexico. He gets paid by this rich guy to basically be a bodyguard.

Mhmm. Because because the guy that is paying him, he's wealthy and he's got enemies. You know, the little girl, he ends up developing a bond and, you know, caring for her. And then she ends up getting kidnapped. And what's kinda crazy is he goes through all of this stuff and just tears everything up.

And, you know, you know, typical Denzel fashion. Kinda like the equalizer. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

And but what struck me was the idea that he, at the end of it, what he ends up doing is since she's held hostage and, you know, basically is I don't know if I can use the term like rants, you know, like almost like a ransom, you know, like they they have to pay them ransom money. And but anyway, so he ends up giving his life for hers in exchange. And I think that that's just a powerful thing just from a Christian perspective. I know it's not a Christian movie Mhmm. Even though he quotes scripture, you know, a couple times in it.

But, but that really struck me just because just that idea of a ransom, and how we can kind of think of that too, like in scripture about someone giving their life for somebody else. Mhmm. We we know that passage. Jesus says there's no greater love than, you know, he who gives up his life for another or for his friends. So this kinda touches actually on Revelation 59.

So when people tell me that they think that the idea of that Christ died for a specific people and not all men equally. First off, you have the Jews who were God's chosen people in the Old Testament, and that was very, small group of people. Mhmm. Like, you know, compared to, you know, all the tribes of the earth Right. If you really think about it.

And so but here you have with Christianity when the gospel spreads, Jesus comes. You actually have the expansion of the kingdom. But so in Revelation 59, it says, and they sang a new song saying, worthy are you to take the scrolls and open its seals. For you were slain and by your blood, you ransomed people for God from, or some translations out of, every tribe, language, and people, and nation. And I think that that's really powerful because that is something I kind of, you know, that's a little bit of the rebuttal I give is he doesn't say he ransomed every people, every tribe, every nation, every tongue.

He says people out of every and I think that that's a very good distinction. I know it's seems minor, but it's really important. Yeah. Yeah. I agree.

It it seems like it's very specific rather than just saying he did rescue everybody. It's like, no. He rescued a specific group of people out of everybody. Out of everybody. Yep.

Yeah. Yeah. And then too, there's a lot of imagery depicting this in in different ways with Jesus saying, you know, he's the good shepherd and he lays down his life for sheep. So you have that kind of, figurative, picture painted. Ephesians 525, husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.

And I know we've kinda talked about this previously in an episode that you and I were in about the importance of marriage and how it's a reflection of Christ and his love for his people. Mhmm. And I think that that shows the willingness that men should have to lay down their lives for their wives if needed. Yeah. Okay.

So anything you wanted to touch on before I proceed to the early church fathers? Anything you wanted to break, you know, break down or point out? So I will say, sometimes, just so for my own satisfaction Yeah. I like to kind of play devil's advocate with myself Sure. And just kind of disagree with myself a little bit.

Not to sound like I'm bipolar or something or schizophrenic. But when I read a passage like like John 179, like you just, you know, recited, I pray for them. I'm not praying for the world, but for those you have given me for they are yours. Right? Sometimes I like to kind of assume immediately with scripture that it's just kinda laying it out black and white.

Like, you know, Jesus is specifically talking about a select group of people. Yeah. And then I like to go a little further sometimes and be like, but is he really? You know? Is that actually what he's saying?

Yeah. Sure. But then, you know, these other verses as well. Right? Husbands love your wives just as Christ loved the church.

Right? The church doesn't mean absolutely everybody. You know? No. It's not the entire world.

Nope. Specifically, the church is announced throughout scripture, you know, even, like, when Peter talks about how we're all building blocks Yeah. Of, like, a building of a church. Right? He's specifically referring to believers.

You know? Right. So, yeah, I I just so I'm I'm saying that because I can understand why I think people to go a little further with it sometimes, like you said, the idea of this being unfair. Yeah. Right?

This atonement is only limited to a select group of people. I can understand why somebody would say that. Like I said, it feels initially like it is pretty unfair. Yeah. But I as you'll probably continue to, you know, like, touch on here with the subject, when you dive even deeper into the actual atonement of Christ and how much he gave Right.

And how much it actually covered. It makes way more sense. Right? Right. This idea of sacrificing for somebody else, like a husband to his wife or, you know, a guy with his friends.

Right? When the people that have been sacrificed for can recognize that sacrifice, it makes so much it it means so much more. Yeah. Rather than it being just general, rather than it being just kind of this vague, I think we'll we'll get into this version, but, like, okay. Yeah.

Because he said some pretty interesting things on this topic. For sure. But, to touch on what you said, it's just not securing the salvation of anybody. It's more of this generalized salvation. BB Warfield hones in on this too.

Mhmm. That more of the Arminian view is gonna be that it you know, it's more of that general, like, Christ in his death did not save anybody. It only opened a like, from their perspective, it only opened a passage or a possibility of So it puts Ben into a savable state, but it doesn't save them. Right. Right.

Yeah. That makes sense. And, yeah, like I said, you know, if you have a husband who's donating a kidney to his dying wife Yeah. He didn't just, you know, take out his kidney and say, well, who else needs 1? You know?

Yeah. Or whoever, you know, my wife is dying right now, but, specifically, this is up for grabs. Yeah. You know, that whole idea, it's like, no. This is, like, very intentional with a specific end goal in mind.

A specific design to it. Yeah. And I think that that is where I started to, you know, when I was, I don't know, in my maybe early to mid twenties when I started veering highly more Calvinistic in my soteriology, I guess Mhmm. Is I couldn't I can't reconcile this idea that it's left, like, that it's left up to chance. That there's no perfect design and plan Mhmm.

Because it just doesn't seem ascribable to God's nature. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it doesn't seem like it it yeah. Well, kind of to go back on what what you had said previously, the idea of fairness. And so this is another one I think that's an important passage where the parable that Jesus tells about, you know, a man, has people coming in and working.

I think it was maybe a vineyard or, so he pays people at different times a day, the, you know, 7th hour, 9th hour. And then the guy in the 11th hour, you know, the guy that shows up last or maybe he gets picked last. Mhmm. But and then he pays them in the reverse and gives, like The same amount. The same amount to everybody.

And one of the questions is is fairness. And and then Christ says, you know, of the master of the house who pays these people, he said, do I not have the right to do with my own as I please? Right. And I think that that's so powerful because it really puts you in your place when you're trying to sit there and subject God to our judgment. You know?

Yeah. It's like the whole argument of, oh, let's say this person lived a great life their whole life, and then they don't accept Christ at the end of their life, and they go to hell compared to this guy who's a mass murderer. Right? He killed people forever. And then at the end of his life, he accepts Christ.

Oh, so God just, you know, welcomes him into the kingdom. Right? How unfair does that seem? And my argument to that is I don't think you understand God's salvation, if that's how you're viewing it. Or our, Depravity?

Depravity? Yeah. Our iniquity? Right. That's a part of it too.

You know? Yeah. It's a big picture, and it's hard to it's easy to kinda pinpoint specific things that we like to think of normally Yeah. As being somewhat, you know, subjectively unfair. Yeah.

But that's where I'm like, you got you got to study more into the whole picture of what's going on here. You know? So yeah. Right. Yeah.

And Spurgeon, I think, brought this up. Sproul brought this up. But, that idea that, you know, when people are appalled and shocked with horror that God hated Esau, he's like, I don't have trouble with that. I have trouble with understanding how God loved Jacob. And it's so true.

Yeah. That's so true. Because he was such a liar. You know what I mean? Despicable.

Yeah. He was a yeah. He was he was deceitful. He was a liar. He tricked his brother.

It's like he tricked his father. Yeah. He, like, stole everything from his brother. He's like, that's okay. Yeah.

Yeah. So I'll I'll run through a couple of these early church father quotes. And what I wanted to say about it is just that I think sometimes that if definite atonement is not super evident in, like, a lot of early church fathers and I actually haven't studied a ton of early church fathers. I've read, you know, maybe Justin Martyr. I've read, I think there might have only been one thing by Polycarp maybe.

I've read some Eusebius. And then I've read a good amount of Augustine, but when you think about the vast amount of writings he's he's had you know, I've read, like, 13, oh, that's a lot. And then I'm like, you look at, you know, he's got, like, hundreds of works. You're like, it's not that impressive. You know, it's not it it yeah.

Like, you will only know, like, when you read like, if someone's written that much and, like so it's not like you can sit there and accurately say everything that he held to, everything that he believed accurately because it's like, well, I don't He was his own person. You know, I'm sure he had thoughts and ideas and conversations outside of what he wrote even though he was a prolific writer, and teacher. But, like, one of the things I wanted to say was there was a couple of quotes that, like, pleasantly surprised me, in regards to, like, kind of veering a little bit more definite atonement from a couple early church fathers. And these are just a couple that I had liked. I mean, I'm sure there's more.

And it's just that idea, you know, it's kind of similar to the idea of that mustard seed parable that Jesus tells about, like, the kingdom. And I think the same thing can be said about some doctrines. The doctrines are there in scripture, but I think over church history, you know, throughout time, it's becomes more fully developed and more fully realized. Not that they're creating doctrines, but they're more fully understanding, fully explaining it because of the wealth of theological teachings that the church as a whole has provided for us. Yeah.

So this is Justin Martyr. He says, Jesus died for men of every kind, not all men. I mean, we could stop right there and say that, you know, what else is that but definite atonement? Right. Okay.

So he says, as Jacob served Laban for the cattle that were spotted in a various forms, so Christ served even to the cross for men of every kind of many in various shapes, procuring them by his blood and the mystery of the cross. And so I really like that analogy just because you could see when Jacob left, like, the house of Laban, which would have been his father-in-law, he took only the spotted and speckled sheep. Do you know much about that story with Yeah. It's been a while, but Yeah. It has been a little bit for me too, but, you know, of course, he works 7 years for, Leah or for Rachel, ends up getting Leah.

Yep. He gets shortchanged on that. But then, you know, he's gotta work another 7 years for Rachel. But, you know, when he decides to leave, it's time for him to leave. God's laying it on his heart for him to leave.

Mhmm. And, you know, that's the deal he makes with Laban, you know, all of the sheep that are spotted and speckled from now on that are born. And, of course, what does god do? He makes a lot of them spotted and speckled for Jacob. Right.

And, well, so you have that design and intent there. I know it's kind of a it's not a perfect analogy, but I think you can kinda see what he's saying there. Yeah. It's a good one. Yeah.

And then Augustine of Hippo, he says, Christ was not handed over to death for the redemption of all, but only for the redemption of those who were to reign with him in heaven. So those were 2 quotes that I kinda felt like were applicable to directly what we're talking about today about the atonement. I like how you put those together too because the one used a historical example and the one is referring to the future. You know? So it's kinda funny because I mean, we could think of both.

Right? Right. Lots of old testament examples of how God did select specific things in people. And then as we look forward to the future, like, there are passages in scripture like Paul where he's like, don't you know that you're gonna judge angels? You know?

Yeah. But he's talking to the church, which is very, in my opinion, intimidating to even think about, oh, we're gonna judge angels. You know? Yeah. That's kind of intense.

Yeah. That is intense. Yeah. And that idea that I think it's because we always see angels as being above us Yeah. As in superiority Right.

And what their capabilities are. But, I mean, Arthur Pink brought this up, and I know we've I think we have discussed it actually in the first season. Just that idea that, you know, Christ did not come in the the form of an angel to save the angels and redeem them. He came in the form of human beings. Yeah.

Because the angels fell just like humans fell. Mhmm. And maybe not the same exact way, but they both have fallen. Yeah. So it is kind of interesting to think about.

Yeah. So I was gonna see if you could read that Charles Spurgeon quote for me, and then we'll kinda break it down. Yeah. Sure. So this is from Spurgeon.

The Arminians say Christ died for all men. Ask them what they mean by it. Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of all men? They say, no, certainly not. We ask them the next question.

Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of any man in particular? They answer no. They're obliged to admit this if they are consistent. They say, no. Christ has died that any man may be saved if and then follow certain conditions of salvation.

Now who is it that limits the death of Christ? Why? You. You say that Christ did not die so as to infallibly secure the salvation of anybody. We beg your pardon.

When you say we limit Christ's death, we say, no, my dear sir. It is you that do it. We say Christ so died that he infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number who through Christ's death not only may be saved, but are saved, must be saved, and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. Yeah. That's great.

Yep. That I mean, that is that is great because it is just so true that they cannot you know, whatever can be said about the Arminian position, they cannot give any sort of definite design or intent. Like, I mean, god's intention was to save all men equally. Mhmm. If that was his intention, then, you know, PINK has brought this up as well.

It's like, how horribly defeated the holy spirit must feel. Because, I mean, that is what he isn't if that's what he's intended, he's not able to accomplish what he's intended. Right. And to me, that seems like a a thought that's not worthy of God. Mhmm.

You know what I mean? I know that that sounds harsh, but it almost seems like it's not worthy of the God of the scriptures and what we believe about him and his being all powerful. Yeah. It's almost like he's incapable of something. Yeah.

You know? Like, he can't do everything he says he can do. Well, yeah. He's incapable of it because of what? Because of unbelief.

Right. And that's gonna be something that we'll get into next because unbelief is a really pivotal, I think, point in this discussion. Mhmm. And I didn't really realize how much it was important until thinking about, like, that John Owen quote. Like, it's just a paragraph, but, like, I remember the first time I read it.

And I read it, and I read it again, and I just kept reading it, and it just kinda blew my mind. Mhmm. And, have you ever, you know, done that before where you stumble across something and it's not even that long and you're like, this is I've thought about this repeatedly over and over again. It keeps coming back to me. Oh, for sure.

For sure. Yeah. It's happened a few times. I will say, I I know I've brought him up before and Owen? No.

Not not Owen. Another guy, Michael Heizer. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I've I've got really into him the past, like, year, I'd say.

Yeah. And I've Is he is he more of a linguist? I know my one of my buddies, Matt, at my work, he he's a big time I think he's a big fan of doctor Heizer. I don't know a lot about him. I know that from what our conversations, I know I'd probably disagree with him on eschatology, but I Oh, okay.

I think I have heard that he's a a linguist. Or Yeah. He so he had a PhD in Hebrew Bible. Okay. And I think maybe I'm mixing up the 2, but I know he did like a subcategory of ancient near eastern languages.

Okay. So, yeah, he's very much a linguist. And I'd say more than anything, he's like a biblical studies guy Okay. More than necessarily like a theologian. And, yeah, the stuff that I'll read from him sometimes, I'll I'll go over a passage and maybe just kinda skim through it.

And then I think about it. I'm like, wait. What did that just say? And then I'll have to go back Yeah. And reread it.

And I've done that with a few of his his, you know, teachings. I'll I'll review it. It kinda starts sinking in, and it just kinda starts, you know, warping my way of thinking a little bit in a good way. And I'm like, wow. That's I I never really thought of it that way, you know.

Puts a different perspective on it. Yeah. And then I gotta go back and read it again. I'm like, wait. What?

And then I'll read it again. And it just it becomes even more mind blowing, you know. Yeah. It definitely happens. I love it when that happens.

Yeah. Agreed. So this is gonna be John Owen, another re reformed theologian. And actually, I have a question for you. I was thinking of this.

So I'm pretty sure well, I know that Spurgeon was a Baptist. Mhmm. But John Owen, he's a congregationalist. And it's I think it maybe at one point he might have been I'm kind of reading a John Owen book. And when I say reading, I'm taking my good old time with it.

And, just because it it's it's a little bit more difficult. And it's actually just a biography of him. Okay. There's a really good series from Crossway, I believe. It's, theologians on the Christian life.

So I went through and I I've read, like, the Warfield one was really good. I've read a couple others like the Herman Babink one, but I'm on the John Owen one. And for some reason, I find it kind of difficult to read just because John Owen was a complex character. Oh, really? Yeah.

John Owen was do do you know much about him? No. I don't know. So he was a I think you can call him a Puritan. Yeah.

He was a Puritan and, he was in England. But he was a very interesting figure because one of the things that was happening I don't remember what what college he was at. It's Cambridge. I don't know if is Cambridge in in England? Yeah.

Okay. It might have been Cambridge maybe. Oxford. Yeah. Yeah.

It was one of those. Mhmm. So basically, he was really impressive figure, like, he, you know, probably had his PhD or masters or whatever at a really early age. But one of the things that was interesting about the book was that he was around the time when it was the Quaker movement started. And they would actually call him, like, shakers because they would, like, shake uncontrollably.

Yeah. Like, it's really crazy that what what they were accusing guys like Owen of was that too much academia. Basically, they're they're too too much head thought, like, too much, too intellectually minded in that their good works or their actual religious life wasn't, wasn't being displayed basically, or that they thought it was just solely focused on head knowledge and not so much of doing. Right. And I think that, you know, if I had to veer one way or the other because I think that it's just natural for people to do that.

Some people are more of like doers and maybe they don't like to go deep into stuff. They don't. It's just not their personality. Mhmm. Same thing with people that love worship and, you know, kinda zone out during the message or some people that like someone like me, I'm just there for the message.

I can skip the worship. That's just that's how my personality's been. And I'm not saying it's a good thing. I'm just saying that how people are wired, you know. For sure.

Yeah. But anyway, so he had he has this quote. He says the father imposed his wrath due unto and the son underwent punishment for either all the sins of all men, all the sins of some men, or some of the sins of all men. So you have those 3 categories. All the sins all the sins of all men, all the sins of just some men, and some of the sins of all men.

And he then he breaks it down as to, you know, trying to explain what that means. He goes, in which case it may be said that if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for and so none are saved. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead or place, suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth. But if the last be the case I'm sorry. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, because of unbelief. I ask, is this unbelief a sin or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it or he did not? If he did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which he died? If he did not, he did not die for all their sins.

I had to Goodness. I had to go back and read that several times and, you know, I still get I still stumble on it sometimes, making sure I understand it. Yeah. It's it's so clear but so confusing. Yeah.

I mean, when you break it down and and parcel it out, it's easier to digest. For sure. Have have you come across that quote before? No. But I I I mean, just even reading through it now Yeah.

It's funny because I'm like, oh, wow. Yeah. That makes total sense. Yet it is perplexing as as nothing else. You know?

So Yeah. Yeah. So the Arminian position would be that and I think that this is kinda more of the dominant view is that He died for all the sins of all men. He died for all the sins of all men. You know, Spurgeon brought this up as well.

He died just as much for Judas as he did Peter. Right. There's no distinction between the 2. Mhmm. God died for Judas.

God God died for Peter. There was no distinction between them. So what distinguishes them one from the other is belief or unbelief. Mhmm. And so but as we know from scripture, the Holy Spirit is the one who turns people to belief.

Mhmm. And this is something that Augustine had kind of honed in on. When people are having trouble kind of understanding, like, I I think that Arminians, for example, like, I don't think they pray like Arminians. And the reason why I say that is because because they don't believe that God can interfere or change a person's heart or beliefs or ideas. If they did, it would seem kind of useless to pray for them.

Mhmm. You know what I mean? At least from a a real perspective as in, like, Augustine notes, why do we pray for those that don't believe that they should believe? Unless we believe with perfect propriety, God is able to change, hearts that are perverse and opposed to the faith. Mhmm.

And that to me is really clear because it's like, if God is unable to change, change it. If he's unable to change whether or not they believe, why do we pray for those that they should believe and that God should intervene? Right. He's incapable of changing it. He's gotta respect their, quote, unquote, free will.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like there's just no point. Yeah.

You know? There's just no point even trying, you know, because it's not gonna happen. Yeah. Because it So why would you pray at all about any of that? Yeah?

Yeah. Yeah. Because it almost seems like that, you know, from their side, they're like, oh, you know, why would you pray for unbelievers, you know, if it's their destiny is already set and election is real, at least in the way we believe it. Mhmm. But it's like, I feel like it can be turned around on them.

Be like, why would you pray for these people if God is unable to change their their beliefs or or their hardened heart. Basically, from a hardened state to an I will remove from you your hardest stone and give you a heart of flesh. You know? Softened heart. Yeah.

Yep. There's just no point if he's not gonna do it or he can't do it. You know? Yeah. Or he just he respects them too much to interfere.

Right. I think that that's gonna be their position on it. Yeah. That's very interesting. So I like I mean, I like the idea.

I guess I shouldn't say I like the idea, but when I stumbled across Owen's quote, it really did, have me kind of thinking a lot about that idea that unbelief is a sin. Mhmm. It almost seems to be one of the great sins, and and you could tell me if you think I'm off base with this. But do you think there's there's been a lot of theologians that kind of propositions or I don't wanna say proposition, but basically put forward ideas as to what they believe the unforgivable sin is. So I think it could be reasonable that maybe it's unbelief.

You know what I mean? Because those that are damned, what damns and separates them is belief or unbelief. You know what I mean? Like, if they don't believe in the one true God, they don't believe that Jesus Christ is the son of living God, Peter's confession of, you know, confession of faith. Mhmm.

Then to me, it's like if there is a sin that separates them, I would think it would be that sin. Yeah. And so there was a couple of, I think that this can be, you know, maybe I'm reading a little bit too much into the text, but we'll discuss this idea that unbelief is a sin. Because first Timothy 113, though formally I was a blasphemer, a persecutor, and insulin opponent, but I received mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief. Hebrews 312, take care brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart leading you to fall away from the living God.

So there's that kind of idea that that unbelief is an evil thing. You know what I mean? What what are you what are your thoughts on it? Well, so I'd say, initially, the first thing I think of is the other verse in Hebrews that says, without faith, it's impossible to please god. Right.

So it's literally just throwing it out there. Without faith, you're not pleasing god. Yeah. So I do think that if if that's the if that's, like, the metric, that's the standard, then, you know, what doesn't please God's sin. You know.

So I'd say if you put the 2 things together, then that means that unbelief is sin. You know? And it seems like that because unbelief is what separates us from God, but you could make the same argument that that's what sin does. Right? Sin separates us from God.

So it's almost kinda like we sin due to unbelief in some way or another. Way of looking at it actually. Yeah. Put them almost kinda like they're, what's it called? Like, almost two sides of the same coin.

You know? Right. Yeah. So I'd say it's it's definitely, very plausible to say, yeah, unbelief could be categorized as sin. I think it gets tricky though because unbelief has a lot of layers to it.

Yeah. You know? And I think it's kinda like, you know, you can imagine the disciples with Jesus where Thomas they call him doubting Thomas. Right. Right?

After Christ raised from the dead, Thomas didn't believe even though he was looking at him Yeah. That everything was happening exactly how Jesus said it was. So he was still doubting even though he still believed in Jesus. That's yeah. Which is weird.

That's a very valid point. You know what I mean? He was still doubtful that it happened. And and, I mean, I definitely can understand doubt. Yeah.

Me too. Yeah. It's it's We're human. You know? Yeah.

We're gonna have doubts at times. Yeah. So this is something that, like, it's gonna be a little bit more personal. Okay. But I have a obsessive compulsive disorder, and it's not too it's not too like an extreme, but I could see it rear its ugly head from time to time.

And they actually used to call it the doubting disease. Mhmm. And I think that that's really interesting because it's it's this idea I mean, this is why, like, I overwash my hands. You know, that's that's a common thing. And OCD is very it's kinda one of those things where it could be a sign of phobias or it could be its own thing.

You know what I mean? It could just be simply OCD. I actually helped out a, a friend of mine's mom. She was, getting her degree, but she needed, like, a guinea pig to, like, run through all these tests and basically, like, analyze me. Okay.

Like, she needed to volunteer. So I volunteered myself. And, I think she knew that Evan had probably told her that, I obsessively wash my hands, you know. Like, reason behind that is you are fearful of something. You're fearful of you're gonna, I don't know, catch a disease.

There's a reason why you do it. Like, I can be a little bit of a checker, but some people are really extreme. Like, they have to do a certain flick the lights on and off, like, a lot of times or an x amount of times or, you know, this could be prevalent too. She was telling me that she would experience, she would meet with people, like, let's say they're they're Roman Catholic. They might recite the rosary, like, x amount of times or if they don't, something bad is gonna happen to their family.

Mhmm. So it's that superstitiously. Yeah. It's superstitious. But at the same time, it's because that doubt creeps in.

And I think that that is, you know, like you said, it's just doubting is just a normal human emotion that or human feeling that we get sometimes. Mhmm. And I think it can be tough to counteract. But like like you said with Thomas, you know, what does Jesus say in response? Doesn't he say, you know, you see, therefore, you believe.

Blessed are those who have Don't see. Who don't see and still believe. Mhmm. It the is it to Thomas that he says that, or is it in another situation? I thought that he was talking to the disciples there.

It could have been. Because with Thomas, I know he's like, oh, so you don't believe me? Yeah. Go ahead and, you know, stick your your finger through the piercing Yeah. Marks.

Right? And it's like And in my side. Yeah. Yeah. Which is so interesting because I'm just like imagining that scene.

Could you imagine the disciples? They're probably because, you know, these are a bunch of kinda, you know, normal normal dudes. Yeah. And Thomas is like, you know what? I still don't know if I believe this.

And Jesus is right. Yeah. Right there in front of him. He's like, Jesus, I don't I don't think so, man. Sorry.

And Jesus is like, I mean, what I love about the response of Christ too, and maybe this will encourage anybody who hears this, he didn't treat Thomas with contempt when Thomas Right. Was struggling with belief right there. Yep. Even though it was, like, so blatantly obvious that this was going on, Thomas still was like, I just don't know. Yeah.

You know? Christ didn't take him and, like, condemned him. There are a couple other times where it seems like the disciples lacked faith and Jesus kinda rebuked them for it. Yeah. Or, Peter when he when he's he's asked to walk out on the water, like, Jesus tells him to come out and And rebuked him for his lack of faith.

Yeah. You know? And then and then grabs hold of him and brings him up. And it's like, what a what a great picture that is, I think, for a Christian. Because it's like, we're sitting here, we're we're doubting even after all the things that, you know, we know and, you know, we'll doubt.

And then it's just kind of like that idea of Christ just pulling you up, pull you know what I mean? And he saves you. Yeah. He saves you. He saves you from drowning.

You know? Yep. And, yeah, I think with with the whole situation with Thomas too, it's just so funny. Because I have a feeling, and I think that this is all of us that do know the Lord. Like, the disciples are just sitting off to the side while Thomas is like, I don't think so, Jesus.

I don't think you're real or whatever or whatever he was saying. And Jesus is like, okay. Well, here's proof. Yeah. Go ahead and do that.

You know, put your hand through the pierce marks. And I'm just imagining the other disciples at this time, they're probably just like, oh, Thomas, you really messed up, dude. And then they see him do that. They're like, wow. That is so cool.

You know? Yeah. And I think that that's what happens to all of us. Like, maybe we'll have a brother or a sister that's going through a terrible time and they start to doubt, and then God just performs something into their life. Yep.

And then we're the witnesses that see it. And we're like, that is so cool that God did that for you. You know? Yep. And it's very it's very obvious after a while when God does provide for specific people.

You're like, wow. That's so crazy that that happened to you in your life. Yeah. And it it's it's a witness that God does do those things too. So And sometimes it's not always apparent.

Sometimes it's after the fact that we see it years down the road or, like, when you reflect on it. You're like, I I remember when I was struggling with that or, you know, it seemed like God wasn't gonna come through, and then he does. And I think with unbelief, there are times and seasons where we're allowed to have unbelief. I don't think God condemns us for, like, reaching that point sometimes. I think where the condemnation happens is when it never gets brought back to faith.

Yeah. And it stays there. You know? Well, and there's a category for that too. Have you ever heard of that redeem Zoomer guy?

Mm-mm. No. It's Katie actually showed showed me him. He I think it's funny. He he has these videos on YouTube where he'll he'll talk about theology while he's playing Minecraft.

Oh, yeah. But he also has, like, these different explanations for, like, he'll kind of do these, like, quick videos of, like, explaining Baptists in 5 minutes or 10 minutes or explaining Roman Catholics or Anglicans in 5 minutes. Playing Minecraft. Or no. Well, sometimes.

But Yeah. Yeah. But he'll have separate videos where he'll actually just talk over, like, memes or images and stuff. He had brought up in one of his videos about how that idea of, like, eternal security and how it can be kinda different than, like, the perseverance of the saints. Because he mentioned that, you know, the parable of the sower and how those those I I I can't quote it, like, offhand, but I do know that there's some that fall on stony ground, some that, you know, start growing and then the thorns choke it out.

Mhmm. So and then Christ explains what the parable means. He doesn't just leave it for And mystery. Mystery to Mhmm. You know, for them to guess.

So one of the things that he says is that the one of the categories or one of the groups is those people that have a almost surface y faith, faith that doesn't persevere, doesn't last. Mhmm. It's almost like at face value, you, you know, you say you believe it or you say it's true, but it's doesn't really have its root. Mhmm. You know what I mean?

Yeah. So, like, there's a distinguish the, you know, distinguishing factor here that, allows you to see true saving faith versus a surface level faith that's, you know, someone makes a profession of faith, but then doesn't continue to walk on it walk in it. It's not that true believers don't stumble, don't sin. It's just that idea that Christ picks you back up. And what you said about consistency is really true and real.

Like, human be as human beings, as believers, we doubt. But we also too, I think we, well, we doubt and we also experience times of almost, like, a little bit of unbelief. But it's not like unbelief that we no longer believe that Christ is the son of the living God. Mhmm. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. Like, there there's there's doubts that creep in and Well, and you're making me think of just this whole idea of, like, the fact that people are going to run into these issues a lot sometimes. Yeah. Because we all face really tough times in our life. And some some people experience more tough times or maybe more aggressively tough times than some of the rest of us.

And I think the key is in the relationship aspect with Christ. Because even with the parable of the sower, you know, the best example obviously is the first one. Right? You know? Or or the one that planted the season.

It just bloomed all these other fields with, you know, lots of a fruitful harv harvest and all of that. And, you know, I think when we all first read that passage, we're like, oh, that is gonna be me. That is for sure gonna be me. The other 3, get those out of here. I'm never gonna be any of those, you know.

Especially when it gets choked by the world, stay away from me, world. I'm gonna be fine. You know? And then life is. And then, like, all of us have probably been all of those before.

Yeah. We almost feel like we've been all of those categories. That's how it feels. You know? And and I'll I'll say this.

So what I've experienced in my life is that I for sure have been all of those examples. But what I still know is what I still know to be true is that Christ still loves me. And I have a relationship with him, and I still communicate with him. He still communicates with me, and it's wonderful. Yeah.

Because like Thomas, I have also gone to Christ and said, hey. I don't know if I believe something, you know, whatever that may be. And I love it because it's interactive, and it's personal, and it's relational. And that's what God wants of all of us. He wants that personal connection, that relationship with him.

Because until you really have that, you know, there might not be a lot of interacting going on. Yeah. You know? So I would just want to say that as a little bit of a word of encouragement. We're all gonna have our seasons of doubt and unbelief.

And I do think that, like you said, it is it is a sin. Right? But it's not an unforgivable sin if you do come back to Christ. Right? Yeah.

So Well, and I think that that's what distinguishes true unbelief from, like Unrepentant. Yeah. From Irredeemable. Yeah. Unbelief.

Yeah. Well, I think it's just yeah. It's it it is a lot to think about. Yeah. And you're like Closing notes.

Yeah. Yeah. Closing notes here. I had some additional questions, but I think I'll hold off on it just because I know we're probably running out of time here. Sure.

But, what I was gonna say and same thing with, like, with doubting, I also think that there's that lack of faith, you know, like like, you you we've kinda just run through a couple of examples with the disciples. Mhmm. And I think that it shows the consistency, and I think that that's another reason why. I know it's not the same exact topic as perseverance of the saints, but that idea that you can believe in a God that actually what what does Spurgeon say that believers don't run the risk of they can't be anything but saves if Christ has saved them. Mhmm.

And I think why the why that's important to understand is that he is not the same as us in the sense that our love can sometimes be conditional. You know what I mean? Towards other people and towards him. Mhmm. You know what I mean?

It it's easier to despise and reject and be mad at God when things don't go our way. But, like, for him, like, there's that passage, like, even when we are faithless, he is faithful. Mhmm. You know, I think that that's a good good way to just look at it. You know what I mean?

Like, even though we lack consistency, he doesn't. Never. And that's why with the atonement thing, I think that that is why I'm like, it just doesn't seem consistent with his nature, and that's why I can't hold to this universal atonement. Like, you you know what I mean? We'll have to dive deep deeper into some of the rejections at at a later date.

You know, I wanna thank you for just coming on again today. I mean, it was a great conversation. I mean, there's a lot there. I definitely think that this could be a 2 part episode where maybe next season we'll have to dive deeper into maybe some of the objections or maybe into universalism in general. Yeah.

So That'd be a great subject to talk about. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I really appreciate you coming on today, Cory.

It's been great. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I have. And, just wanna thank you for taking the time today. Yeah. Thanks, Zech.

Appreciate, you inviting me to come back on. Yeah. For sure.