The Nephilim and the Watchers

Season 3 Episode 1 Transcript

Special Guest: Zach Humm

Zechariah Eshack: 0:00

Welcome to the Restless Theologian podcast, where we focus on having insightful conversations in biblical history and theology. I'm your host, Zechariah Eshack, for our first episode of Season 3, I have back with me Zach Humm, and today we're going to be discussing the Nephilim, the Watchers and the Book of Enoch. How are you doing, Zach?

Zach Humm: 0:32

I'm doing great, Zech. Thanks for having me back. Everything's great. I'm just happy to be here. I've been getting out of my comfort zone doing this podcast and apparently I'm doing all right because you keep asking me back. So here I am.

Zechariah Eshack: 0:43

Yeah, no, I'm doing all right because you keep asking me back, so here I am. Yeah, no, I love having you on. Thank you, you're welcome, and congratulations on the new job too, by the way. Thank you.

Zach Humm: 0:50

Enjoying that and things are going well there. So lots of changes in life, but just trust the plan and go where you're sent.

Zechariah Eshack: 0:58

Yeah, that's awesome For this episode. We're going to be just taking a look deeper into the origin story of this. It starts, as you know, with Genesis 6. There's a lot of questions surrounding this, like who were the Nephilim? Who were the giants, Are the giants Nephilim, you know? And about the fallen angels where do they come into play? So, as we take a deeper look into this, I feel like a good place to start. I think we'll start with Genesis 6 and then work our way back to Enoch Perfect. So would you mind reading Genesis 6, 1 through 4 for me?

Zach Humm: 1:38

Sure. When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and the daughters were born unto them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful and they married any of them that they chose. Then the Lord said my spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal. Their days will be a hundred and twenty years. The Nephilim were on earth those days also afterwards, when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and they had children by them, they were the heroes of old men of renown.

Zechariah Eshack: 2:13

Great. Thank you, yeah, so there's been a lot of different interpretations for this as to what the sons of God are, because, as we know, in the new Testament, when it speaks about sons of God, it can talk about believers, or son of God and son of man being Jesus Christ. So the question is who are these people? What are these entities? I should say so the traditional view is the one that's supported by Enoch is the fallen angels. The line of Seth is another possible interpretation, the descendants of Adam who intermarried with ungodly women Right, and then another possible interpretation could be rulers or kings.

Zechariah Eshack: 2:57

Now I wanted to touch on the book of Enoch. The book of Enoch and the book of Enoch is really interesting because it does seem that there's early church fathers that referenced the book of Enoch. Even the book of Jude does. But so the book of Enoch is split up into five different sections the book of the watchers, the similitudes of Enoch, the astronomical book, the book of dream visions and the epistle of enoch. Now, when you read the book of enoch, was there anything that stood out to you?

Zach Humm: 3:31

uh well, for the purpose of this, really just focused towards the beginning of the book of enoch, um, so just getting a little bit more of the backstory there about the fallen angels, what, what happened, and then thinking about the consequences of their actions, not just in heaven but also on earth, right? So there came a time, according to the book of Enoch, where the fallen angels decided to take women as their wives and, as a result, the offspring that they produced ended up being some sort of weird hybrid of an angel and a human, which resulted in gigantism, which is kind of where we ended up with our conversation today. So the offspring ended up being large. You hear a lot about their demeanor in some of the stories, so they tend to be associated more with evil or darkness. A lot of fighting and warring going amongst these people, and also some deformities too. So you hear of heads being ugly, like dogs and not necessarily looking as beautiful as the people that produce them. So all very interesting in in what happens there.

Zechariah Eshack: 4:49

Yeah, yeah, from what I've gathered from the book of Enoch is that the watchers were the ones who were. These were the angels that fell. They were originally tasked with watching over the earth and mankind as a whole. So I you know, I'm not sure about how many of them there, like how many in total there were of the watchers, but like the book of Enoch does go on to describe that like 200 angels took wives for themselves and they were led by Samyaza and he was their leader, and according to the Book of Enoch it does sound like that they made a pact on Mount Hermon to carry out this deed.

Zach Humm: 5:37

Yeah, it was very much a planned thing. They came together, they decided this was the thing that was going to happen, and one of them had to take responsibility for the actions of all. So I thought that was kind of an interesting, interesting story there.

Zechariah Eshack: 5:52

It sounds like that they didn't want one person to like. They knew it was wrong. They knew that this was um something that they were going to be judged for. And so they didn't want to be judged individually, but collectively, right, which is why they made the pact, because they didn't want one person to bear the guilt? Um for the deed Right.

Zach Humm: 6:12

They're also associated with um, imbuing humanity with hidden knowledge as well. So there's a list of them, teaching you know astrology and constellations and the sun's path and weapons and armor, and it's interesting reading that in here, when you think about how some of the you know Roman or Greek gods were associated after the fallen angels and their stories on earth are their stories of them projecting themselves as god on earth, you know, which was the same thing that caused them to fall in the first place.

Zechariah Eshack: 6:56

So it sounds like that the fallen angels, the watchers, had, you know, when enoch came to them and was pronouncing like judgment from God, uh, to them, like they asked Enoch to go plead their case to God, basically almost like they were wanting forgiveness for what they were, what they had done, and Enoch speaks with God and then God comes back and basically is like there's going to be no forgiveness for them.

Zechariah Eshack: 7:23

Pass along this message that you know there's no forgiveness at all, which I think is really fascinating to think about, because, arthur Pink, you know, he does talk about how, when Christ comes to save his people, like he comes in the form of, like he comes as a human being and obviously fully God and fully man to redeem men, but he doesn't come to redeem the angels, right, and I think that that's very interesting, that you know that was an option. Probably he probably could have come in the form of an angel to redeem the angels, but he chooses not to. Yeah, so you have these two parallel type stories one celestial, one, you know, earthly I guess, and then, and he chooses to redeem humanity or redeem believers.

Zach Humm: 8:13

Yeah, and the stories tell of the angels being held until that day of judgment too. So it's not like they. They disappeared there. They're somewhere.

Zechariah Eshack: 8:24

Yeah, I think. I think it might be referenced in the new testament as, like tartarus, I think, is where they're being held is that?

Zach Humm: 8:31

is that what you got? Uh, I can't remember exactly the name of it.

Zechariah Eshack: 8:35

I did find an interesting parallel to me, just because numbers are such an important thing in scripture. So you have like seven main angels that teach humanity, these almost like these secret, like secret knowledge, and here you also have seven main tribes listed in the Bible, and the seven tribes of the giants are Nephilim, rephaim, anakim, zamzumim, eman, gaborim and Avim. Now, a couple of the well, I would say two or three of the more greater known ones are Nephilim, rephaim and Anakim, with Nephilim being, it sounds like when they were translating the Bible, I think, into, like the Old Testament, I think, into Greek or Latin. It sounded like that they would a lot of times when they would see Nephilim just translated as giants because that's how they understood it. So I wanted to go back to the origin story and Genesis this is a chapter three versus 15 and I will put enmity between you and the woman, in between your offspring and hers, and he will crush your head and you will strike his heel. So, immediately after Adam and Eve fall, god pronounces this judgment. And so here you see that like the seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent, or the seed of the serpent. Um, I've seen. I've heard it set both ways.

Zechariah Eshack: 10:02

So some scholars propose that the devil's intention here is what he's thinking is to prevent the seed of the woman from coming about, is that he's going to muddy up the waters and he's going to have his fallen angels intermingle with human beings intentionally. So this is a predetermined plan he has that he wants to have carried out. So I would like to get your take on this, because we could see it as an in a couple of different ways, one being that, you know, it's almost like that they're a warped version of what God's future plan is, with the perfect union. You know, we know as Jesus Christ having a hypostatic union, the two natures, obviously fully God and fully man, coming together. But here you have this twisted, corrupted perversion early on that we see take place. So I think it was Dr Gordon Lindsay Is that the name of the author? Yeah, so we were reading a book about the fallen angels, me and Zach and Dennis.

Zach Humm: 11:11

It's Dennis, okay.

Zechariah Eshack: 11:12

Dr Dennis Lindsay. So one of his theories is that, basically, that the devil is trying to prevent the seed of the woman from coming into being. So do you have anything that you would like to go over with that, like, what was your take on his theory that this is a possible predetermined plan by Satan?

Zach Humm: 11:33

If you look at the intent of the fallen angels, why they took the women. It was because of lust, right, it was a relationship due to sin, and so the product of that sin ended up being a deformity. Whereas if humans intermingle with humans and the basis of their intercourse is love, then the product of that can be something really beautiful.

Zechariah Eshack: 11:58

So, almost from a metaphorical standpoint, it's the expression of that in the physical way which is very interesting to me yeah, and it's almost like that they, they gave up their status before god because of their, because of their lust right, because they left it lusted after human beings. It's it's really weird to think about, because when you think about angels, you think about spirit beings, but we know in the Old Testament specifically how angels can appear in the form of men. So my question is one of the questions I have lingering in the back of my head as I'm going through this.

Zechariah Eshack: 12:36

I'm like, physically, how does this play out? How can that be possible for something like this to happen? How can that be possible for something like this to happen? Right, um, so it it does really make you think about the uh, you know angels in a different light.

Zach Humm: 12:51

Well, yeah, the, the physicality of it, right. So you there. There's a couple of mentions of some heights and things like that. As far as the giants are concerned, yeah, um, but no mention of what the stature of the fallen angels would have been. But the, the production of them, um, according to the book of enoch, could have been up to 3 000 l's right, so an l for people who don't know you might. Are you familiar with a cubit?

Zechariah Eshack: 13:17

I'm slightly familiar with the cubit because I remember you know goliath being. I think it's six cubits in a span right.

Zach Humm: 13:23

So the length of a cubit is from the tip of your hand to your elbow Right. So an L. Think about your arm, your full arm. It makes an L when it bends at the, at the elbow right, elbow. So an L is essentially the full length of an arm. So 3000 full lengths of an arm is how is how they're described in in Enoch. So if you were to do that, that actual math, that ends up being 2.13 miles tall.

Zach Humm: 13:50

So when so that's very tall and that's much taller than any other account then that that's been produced about uh giants that you read other places, usually you hear them in the range of anywhere between, you know, nine to 20 feet tall. And if you look at the references, potential references to them in you know, ancient Egyptian art, um, you see giant, a giant figures, um, around smaller people. It's not necessarily I mean, at least in my opinion it's not because they were bad artists. It's because they were representing uh beings than than humans, um, and very much a real representation, you can. We know that the egyptians were very talented, right? So there's these giant statues of ramses ii, 20 feet tall, and they're perfectly symmetrical from left to right, and they're constructed in a way like the eyes are inset in these statues that we don't know how you could physically carve out those eyeballs in such precision. So we know that they had advanced technology, had the ability to represent things incredibly precise.

Zach Humm: 15:04

So when you see things out of, when they look out of scale, maybe potentially they weren't, and these are stories that are being shown and you hear about other accounts across the world too. So when, um, the explorers were exploring america, there's a lot of accounts of them when they were coming up on the shores seeing giant beings that they said were naked right. So there's that association too. There's a whole other rabbit hole you can go down, where they're not necessarily ashamed of their nakedness like a human being would be as well, and it's the only real account. Where you hear about female giants too is eyewitness accounts from some of these explorers. Typically, in literature and in art, you you see them just as portrayed as males, which was interesting as well yeah, it is interesting to go.

Zechariah Eshack: 15:54

You know, in the old testament. I don't think I've ever come across any any known, at least from my recollection any scripture passages mentioning them being females and in a sense they're always warriors, mighty, mighty men of renown, is how the Bible describes them.

Zechariah Eshack: 16:11

Um, yeah, and it's. It's really fascinating. Um, so, with the book of Enoch, and the Ethiopian church is the only one who accepts it as scripture, and you do find references to it a little bit in the early church. So you have Tertullian, origen and Justin Martyr all kind of reference it, and they reference more of it being the fallen angels in Genesis 6. So that was their understanding of it being the fallen angels in Genesis six. Um, so like that was their understanding of it and early on in church history it. What I did find interesting, as you, as I was researching this, is that I think Augustine was one of the first, like really big ones, to reject, um, that interpretation that it being a fallen angels and being more of it going along the lines of um, the line of Seth Um, so I wanted to go back a little bit to uh, or start talking a little bit about Noah, because Noah is.

Zechariah Eshack: 17:16

What's interesting about Noah is that we have this global flood story and we also have this discussion of giants, and so one of the reasons why god decides to flood the earth was because of the corruption, and there's like a passing reference that you know that there was nephilim and you know in those days and also afterward. So you somehow get this idea that. Or is that just like a general statement, or was that the reason why mankind became so corrupted? So like the book of Enoch, for example, actually mentions this. So just to kind of give you a little bit of a parallel, it says the book of Enoch, chapter six, verses one through six, the book of Enoch, chapter six, verses one through six. And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied, that in those days were born unto them beautiful, comely daughters, and the angels of the children of heaven saw and lusted after them and said to one another come, let us choose wives from among the children of men and beget us children. So here you have these parallel stories being told in the book of Enoch.

Zechariah Eshack: 18:30

It is really interesting that, like we don't know exactly when it was compiled it's sometime between the third century BC and the first century BC and since it's split up into five sections, it seems really uncertain to me about the timeline of all those different sections. And it's more of a composite book because they think it has multiple authors, right, and from what we know it does sound like that maybe jude, uh, jude, directly kind of references the book of enoch and then, um, also there's a reference, kind of a passing reference, by jesus where he talks about my house has many mansions. If it were not so, I would have told you. Some claim that that harkens back to the stories in the book of Enoch. So at the very least we can say that the New Testament authors were familiar with the book of the Watchers, the first section of the book of Enoch.

Zach Humm: 19:22

It's also important to know that Enoch was Noah's great-grandfather as well. So there's that sort of there's a unique context there, right? So he he's talking telling these stories of the corruption um which which ultimately led to the flood as well. So some of the some of the it does a good job of explaining some of the ways that the world was corrupted.

Zechariah Eshack: 19:50

Beyond just men being corrupt, it was men physically corrupted through the fallen angels as well so we have this global flood that's being told and, as you I'm sure are aware, like even the book, discusses how there's several cultures that talk about it that didn't seem to have any contact with each other around the world. You have that kind of this consistent theme of a global flood and then be either fallen angels or deities coming down and intermingling with women and procreating. So that seems to me it's like that does seem to be more than coincidence that you have cultures that seemingly have no contact with each other telling the same story. So I guess part of the question is who has the correct story?

Zechariah Eshack: 20:40

you know what I mean, because there's the epic of gilgamesh, which was supposedly told prior to when, um, the book of like, genesis was written, but then again it's like. Just because the, the epic of gilgamesh, might have been written before doesn't negate the fact that, okay, when, when Moses is writing the book of Genesis, he's obviously he could have that spiritual insight from the Holy Spirit to take down this information accurately. Have you thought about that before, about like, the, just the overwhelming evidence from around the world of those, just those two themes?

Zach Humm: 21:15

right, yeah, I think there's. So there's the uh the? Yeah, I think there's. So there's the uh, the giants before the flood, and then there's the evidence of giants after the flood too, which is which is an interesting thread to follow as well. Right, so it's not. This like this was isolated around the holy land, where that's the only place where these people existed. There's evidence across the world, across all the nations and across stories and epic tales, across many, many lands too, of people you know, godlike beings exuding supernatural powers, being giants, and you know kind of the corruption that kind of follows that.

Zach Humm: 22:02

So in all cases, at a certain point they cease to exist. So, like there's been an almost an erasure of thinking about beings of that size from from modern society, which I find incredibly fascinating too, Right. So there's a ton of evidence of these beings existing, even in recent years. So I have one article in front of me from the New York Times in 1916. There was an area in Pennsylvania where they found 68 men whose average height was seven feet or taller. Right, so it's not just like, hey, we found this one being, it was entire populations of giant beings. There's in the New York Times alone. So from 1856 to 1947, there were 55 articles written about giants in there, right, and a lot of times they this is where, you know, the conspiracy theories come out.

Zach Humm: 22:59

Right so you know there's um, there's in that story I just talked about. They donated the bones to the American Indian museum, which is a museum in the Smithsonian Right. So if, if that's true, why? Why wouldn't they display those anymore? You know they're. They're not out in the public, public facing and ever. You know so they say they don't exist.

Zechariah Eshack: 23:20

So yeah, and it sounds like anytime someone picks them up, uh, or someone locates them, like when they're, you know, say, farmers, whatever they're digging uh, anytime these giant bones are discovered, it sounds like that they either have to give them to the government or cover them back up because it's protected because of the classification that it's native american burial grounds. So, if you think about it, like a lot of people probably have their hands tied because, well, they can't disclose it, yeah, and they can't, like, show it because it's kind of protected from that happening.

Zechariah Eshack: 23:55

It's really disruptive to darwinism I think that that's a huge part and I actually could. Um, dr lindsey, I think, really does make a really good point, because if, if the logic with evolution is that man is adapting and getting better and stronger and bigger over time, then this, the logic of having giants with advanced technology thousands of years ago, just kind of puts a hole in that. Oh yeah and so, um, I think that, yeah, like I'm glad you mentioned those new york times articles, discoveries, just because you see how common, like you said, 55 articles within a like probably 100 years time frame and recent right.

Zach Humm: 24:39

So they're. They're finding these. So there's gonna be some sort of decay over a period of time. But to be finding that amount, you know, it's more than likely that these beings were a lot closer in history than than we would even think, right. So you say, oh, giants that must have been. If they actually existed, they had to have not been around after the flood at all. But there's really good evidence of those tribes still existing.

Zechariah Eshack: 25:05

So yeah yeah and going what you were saying about, like with um, north america, just about the presence, and then, um, all those articles. It seemed to be just almost like a common thing that was happening. No one seemed to really like it was very interesting finds. No one was sitting there. I guess I should clarify. It's not that no one was sitting there saying that they weren't true. It just seems to me odd that it's like you have a respected newspaper coming out with these articles fairly consistently. And then I actually thought that this was a you know one of these, one of those fake quotes by abraham lincoln. I was like this has got to be fake, I'm gonna look it up. But he actually did say this. He says the eyes of that species of extinct giants whose bones fill the mounds of america, have gazed on niagara as ours do now, right, so here you have abraham lincoln, know, an American president, just making that statement. And it's just. I found that pretty astounding to me that even up until the present day that they were still, you know, finding evidence of that. The timeline of the giants is really interesting to me, just because it sounds like that a lot of the tribes became extinct over time. I'd be really interested to dive deeper into when each of the races had become extinct.

Zechariah Eshack: 26:26

I kind of wanted to go back to Noah again. So the story goes that Ham, he saw Noah's nakedness and according to scholars, there seems to be some debate as to what that means, because if he just saw Noah naked, it seems pretty harsh to curse him. You know by, you know by God. But some scholars maintain that, oh, this is actually because he had slept with Noah's wife and then God cursed him, and then, therefore, his line is cursed. And then you have Canaan who is cursed, and then Canaan is where we get, you know, the Canaanites.

Zechariah Eshack: 27:05

And then the Israelites were supposed to take the promised land from. Uh, when the Canaanites were already there, it was the land of Canaan, but God promised the land to the Israelites. So when the Israelites sent out spies I think it was a group of 10 or 20. And they basically two of them came back with a bad report saying you know, we saw the giants, the Anakim, in there and they were terrified of them. They said that we were like grasshoppers on their site. So it's like, as I'm reading, I'm like is this hyperbole? Are they just saying that they're? They're big guys and they're?

Zach Humm: 27:46

intimidating, or were they actually giants? I went down a rabbit hole and internet rabbit hole go, you know that's where the best things exist.

Zach Humm: 27:52

So this was on the internet. Take it for what it's worth. But I was starting to read about St Christopher from the Catholics. So St Christopher was a giant. He's the patron saint of traveling. So the story of St Christopher was that he was a giant and he wanted to follow the most powerful person. He started following Satan and then, through his travels, he saw somebody hold up a cross and saw that Satan trembled amongst the cross. So he found out that Christ was the most powerful person. So he decided to dedicate his life to Christ and so he went to go find out how he could serve Christ. And they initially just said oh yeah, why don't you just start fasting and start start preaching? So, but as a giant and you have enormous caloric intake, so that's, that's not too appealing. So instead he decided to go to a river that was really deep that people, the travelers, needed to cross, and so his large stature. He would hold people and help them cross the river. And so there's a story of him holding a baby, put him on his shoulders and as he's crossing the river, the weight of the baby increased and increased and increased, and when he got across, he found out that it was a baby representing Jesus Christ and he was holding the burden of the weight of the world on his shoulders.

Zach Humm: 29:16

Where I'm going with this and we're going to backtrack is there's also a bunch of stories about how St Christopher's face was deformed and he looked like a dog and he was from the land of Canaan and there's a story where the land of Canaan was called that because he looked like a canine, and that's the entomology of that. He looked like a canine and that's the entomology of of that. Um, so it makes me wonder if ham's son, canine the, the cursed one. So noah, he had, he had cursed ham's son, not directly him actually in in the story, and so I wonder if the curse was a deformity, you know, and and it was within that deformity that that group of people perpetuated across the land yeah, there there seems to be a correlation, I mean, between those two words.

Zechariah Eshack: 30:03

I don't know how they might be connected, but k-9 and canaanites yeah, exactly, yeah.

Zach Humm: 30:07

So again internet, who knows?

Zechariah Eshack: 30:09

but yeah, yeah, yeah, the canaanites were, um, like, obviously they lived in the land of canaan and, um, they had many, you know, pagan gods, yeah, like goddesses and stuff, and um, so one of the like offshoot tribes that also lived, I think, there, um, so I think the refaim were close, and then also the amorites in the amorites. I was looking at them, um, because, uh, there's a reference in the Talmud that talks about them. I'm going to see if I can find it Okay. So the Talmud reference is, quote the wicked emperor Hadrian who conquered Jerusalem. So here you have this Roman emperor Hadrian. He conquered Jerusalem, boasted. I have conquered Jerusalem with great power. Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai said to him do not boast. Had it not been for the will of heaven, you would not have conquered it. Rabbi Yohanan then took Hadrian into a cave and showed him the bodies of the Amorites who were buried there. One of them measured 18 cubits, which is approximately 30 feet in height. He said when we were deserving, such men were defeated by us, but now, because of our sins, you have defeated us.

Zechariah Eshack: 31:22

And so I had watched this video. They were digging up an archeological site. I think it was near the land of, like, canaan. So basically the Amorites. It was an actual, like sacred center for them, sacred space where they offer sacrifices, and this is going to be pretty graphic. So if you have younger children listening or playing this out loud, definitely put it on pause. So when they dug it up, they found that obviously it was a place where they made sacrifices of of children and infants, and it's pretty disgusting the some of the stuff that took place, so they would behead them, saw them in half, they would even burn the babies in these jars, like the infants, like and um, and to me it's like it like.

Zechariah Eshack: 32:16

I know, when we're I'm reading the old Testament, especially before, I had a lot of this context, I would always think it's like, okay, you're wiping out an entire tribe. That seems harsh. Why would God do that? Like, you know what I mean. Like that seems like is God, you know, guilty of genocide? Like what is his reasoning for doing this?

Zechariah Eshack: 32:33

But we know God is just and God is holy, so we know that he has his reasons for why you know the things that he does, um, so I wanted to uh mention about um. Let's see if I can find my reference here, okay, so this is in Leviticus 18, 21 through 28. It says do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Moloch, for you must not profane the name of our God. I am the Lord. Because of these detestable practices, the Lord, your God, will drive out those nations before you. So the Old Testament references the wickedness of the Canaanites, and one of the practices that's referenced because of their wickedness was child and infant sacrifices, and by the Canaanites and the Amorites, which is, like I said, a related tribe with the Canaanites.

Zach Humm: 33:26

But I find that like an interesting correlation there that the Amorites themselves seem like they were giants, but it's unclear to me which of the Canaanites were, or if it was just certain Canaanite tribes that were giants yeah, I'm sure it's the latter, right, and just like the nephilim, um, we talked about the, the seven tribes of giants and um, part of me wonders if the nephilim weren't the direct, you know, the generation one, the giants 1.0, of, uh, you know of mutants coming from the fallen ones intermingling with humans, and then the other tribes potentially were. Maybe the giants had offspring and they went that way. I'm not sure where the separation is. That was one thing that kind of racked my mind a little bit, you know, whereas the distinction they according to the description of the different tribes. They had different physical appearances and different deformities, um, amongst the different people. So, um, was this the result of, um, the genetics of the individual angels causing the different tribes to be born, or was it the? Was it further mutations down the line of of the giants?

Zechariah Eshack: 34:40

yeah, because it's a corruption of mankind you know, god created man and he said it's good. And then you have obviously satan coming in with his plan. And, according to dr lindsey, obviously the plan is to pervert and corrupt what god has created. And so it makes sense why God would choose to destroy these, these tribes, and have the Israelites do it. And so, dr Lindsay, he makes the argument that the devil literally is putting the Canaanites in the land of Canaan to prevent the Israelites from taking the promised land Right. So it's like that's the promise that God makes to Abraham.

Zechariah Eshack: 35:22

Yeah, the Bible does record, like the Anakim defeated by Caleb and Joshua, it says the Rephaim were defeated by King David. Let's see, the Zamzuman were defeated by the Ammonites and the Emon were driven out by the Moabites. So you do have that constant fighting by the Israelites against the giants, and I could see that being for multiple things, because they're a constant threat against the Israelites and, you know, because you would think that some of these giant tribes are trying to probably wipe out the Israelites, especially if they're God's chosen people. Now here's something that's very it's not going to be very politically correct, but in my, in my studying this, I found this a very interesting correlation because it's like I know present day over there in the middle East, and I'm not saying that they're giants, but just about these two tribes, um fighting. But um, I looked it up and it said palestinians. According to their lineage they're, they're descended from the canaanites, and so you always see the palestinians fighting the israelis right in the modern day. So it's like you kind of see that this war is like continuing to happen between these two peoples, right, and you really wonder how much of this is uh geography, because if it's like the, well, the canaanites were there probably first, but obviously god promised the land to the is.

Zechariah Eshack: 36:57

But another thing too that Dr Lindsay kind of touches on is muddying up the DNA, and one of the things I found really interesting was about how, when I said that Noah was perfect it's not that necessarily he was morally upright, but it could also extend like Noah being righteous but not, like you know, sinless, but also that he was genetically pure Right was what was important about maintaining his line, because Jesus himself had to come from both. His argument is that Jesus has to come from, uh, obviously spiritually perfect and physically perfect. In order for him to be physically perfect, his genetic line could not have been tampered with by the fallen angels Right, and I found that a really interesting correlation. I actually did find that very fascinating, fascinating to think about.

Zach Humm: 37:55

Yeah, it's definitely something I think a lot about, and this is also probably not politically correct, but you hear about mRNA, vaccines and all sorts of modern technology. From my perspective, I always look at it from a biblical perspective too and just kind of see what's happening in the modern context and how things might be happening in a different way in that perspective as well.

Zechariah Eshack: 38:21

Yeah, going off the genetic idea, it does sound like that. I think it's more referenced in the book of Enoch and there's only slight possible references to it in the Old Testament, but it's not as clear but about the fallen angels basically either intermingling or figuring out how to get different species to procreate together, and I think that that could explain some of the bizarre fossils that we do find. Yeah and um, okay, so here's the book of Enoch reference. This is one Enoch, uh, chapter seven versus five, and it says and they began to sin against birds and beasts and reptiles and fish and to devour one one another's flesh and to drink the blood Hmm, one another's flesh and to drink the blood. It does sound like that.

Zechariah Eshack: 39:16

There's this unnatural hybridization, and so I don't know if it's genetically like they're in a lab trying to figure this out or if it's more bestiality, and so that is another possible reason. Not only they're intermingling with humans, but also getting different animals to procreate together or procreating with animals themselves, and that's how maybe it's. I know it sounds very bizarre when you say it out loud, like is this, is this really possible, and how did they figure this out? Um, one of the things dr lindsey touches on is that with cloning, for example, it sounds like that it's like you know, all clones like I think it's 97 to 99 percent like fail right and like even when they do succeed, they're like severely deformed and they don't live very long at all. So it just makes you wonder how that they were able to kind of figure this genetic mutations thing out, I guess, yeah, or maybe it was them trying to literally play God right.

Zach Humm: 40:17

So they uprose against him, came down here. People treated them like gods, and so perhaps they were trying to become the creators too, running some sort of interesting experiments like that. Some sort of interesting experiments like that. I had a uh, a dog, and he was a blue tick hound and a cane Corso mix, which is basically a Mastiff. So I had a hyperactive, incredibly protective dog and he couldn't really control himself too well and he ended up having all sorts of physical issues too. So you still see the perpetration of. You know what. What can happen if you try to mix things that aren't alike together, um, even even just with our, with our modern species. So imagine what it would be like doing more complex species and the problems that that could introduce you, you know.

Zechariah Eshack: 41:11

Yeah, I cause. Dr Lindsay goes on to um, so I think he's referencing like I think it might be Matthew, chapter 18, when Jesus is prophesying about the destruction of the temple. And um cause, where Dr Lindsay kind of takes it towards the end of the book is more of that Like we're going to see a resurgence of these giants, and that's his take on it. Um, because Jesus makes a reference that so as in the days of Noah, so it will be the coming of the son of man. So how he understands that is that when Christ comes, cause he I think he's thinking of it more from a rapture perspective and the upcoming tribulation, that he's taken that to mean that so as in the days of Noah, meaning that there were giants. I kind of took that more being that it could just mean that, oh well, there was severe corruption and violence and that could also just be the correlation, not necessarily that it necessarily has to be giants that cause. You know what I mean. That's how much more?

Zechariah Eshack: 42:19

of that, that perspective right, it's the, it's the corruption, uh, of the lineage, more than it is the physicality of the results of that yeah, and too, it's like I, you know, I know that this could go down a whole nother rabbit hole with the tribulation, because obviously you know me as a post-millennialist, I'm going to take a certain position that you know. I think that Jesus is talking about the tribulation that comes upon Jerusalem, tells them to flee to Judea and but, like, obviously from a pre-millennialist standpoint, they look at this as being over 2 000 years into the future, something that we have to be scared of. You know, the upcoming tribulation, yeah, so, um, another thing I wanted to bring up about dr lindsey is he talks about the, the refaim, and obviously there's king aga bashan, and I'll probably reference that after I quote him here. So Dr Lindsay talks about this circle of giants, this huge megalithic monument, and so here he says the ancient megalithic monument consists of five concentric stone rings whose diameter is more than 500 feet and consists of more than 40,000 stones totaling some 37,500 metric tons. Whose diameter is more than 500 feet and consists of more than 40,000 stones totaling some 37,500 metric tons. Some of the stones that were used to create the rings weigh 20 tons, which is equal to 10 cars of average size. The outermost wall is about 8 feet high and at its center is a heap of earth about 15 feet tall, placed over what is believed to be an ancient tomb.

Zechariah Eshack: 43:51

The monument is located some 10 miles east of the Sea of Galilee, in the middle of a large plateau. The site is dated by archaeologists to be from around 3000 to 2700 BC. No one can see the shape of the monument from the ground level and there are no hills nearby to gaze upon it. I thought that that was really fascinating, that here you have, like this um megalithic structure or monument built by the Raphael, which are the giants and that would explain that, their large size and how they were able to put, put it together. And I think King Og and Bashan was the last, uh, one of the last giants of that race, because obviously they were eventually wiped out. Um, they actually call it like israel's stonehenge, which I thought was really cool because I was like looking at the pictures of it, I'm like this is really fascinating. I've never heard about it.

Zach Humm: 44:42

Yeah, you see monuments of that size all over the world too, right, and there's always these speculations hey, how'd they get this from here? There, you know, if you were, you know, six times as big, it'd be a little bit easier to move some of that stuff around, right?

Zechariah Eshack: 44:57

yeah, yeah, some of the some of the um. I guess there's two different aspects to look at, because here you have some of these structures that can't be moved by, you know, moved by machines that we have created today. That's number one. Number two, it's the preciseness, right, right, the intricacy and the preciseness of some of these monuments astounds like modern archaeologists and scientists and mathematicians Like to me. So you have two things happening here you have how did they have this type of advanced technology to be able to do this? Also, too, how were they able to move it? And I think the Bible kind of gives us an answer you have fallen angels for the advanced technology and secret knowledge, and then you have the giants to be able to move such large stones. So what are you? I'm sure you have a lot to say.

Zach Humm: 45:59

Yeah, I mean, that's definitely something that's in my wheelhouse as far as things that definitely interest me, you look at perspectives of some monuments too, and you have to look at them from a almost an astrological perspective, right? So the great pyramid of giza, the, the three pyramids there, they align almost perfectly with the orientation of orion's belt, the placement of them, the distance apart from them, and then you even just look at the Great Pyramid. It's not actually a four-sided pyramid, it's an eight-sided pyramid. It slightly concaves towards the middle on each of the sides too. So there's just an extreme amount of precision, to the point where it's not even perceptible. And so clearly there was something of an advanced knowledge in some way, that the labor was done in a way that we can't wrap our minds around.

Zechariah Eshack: 46:58

Yeah, the way we can't imitate it or we can't replicate it today, which to me it's like like if I was a secular scientist or archeologist, it's like how do you go about explaining these things? And I think that's like um scientists or archeologists it's like how do you go about explaining these things? And I think that's like you, you can't really control the narrative.

Zach Humm: 47:16

Yeah, I think that's that's really what it comes down to and that's why we don't think about giants. You know, the the narrative has been pretty well controlled at this point. So, um, you know, if you look at when information was a lot more difficult to to get ahold of, you know, aka reading a book or reading a newspaper Um, it wasn't as easy to put all the pieces together. And now we are in this information age where it's very easy to get a whole bunch of information, so it's just as easy to control the narrative because everybody's looking at the same spot for all the answers. So I tend to I tend to like to read the older stuff and see what the thought process was, even, you know, even 50, 70, 100 years ago.

Zechariah Eshack: 48:02

The way that we perceive things is a lot different than we do now yeah, yeah, I I actually um, I thought it would was just out of curiosity. I was like, well, I'm going to ask ChatGPT the likelihood that giants actually existed, and it said highly unlikely, which I thought was kind of funny, because it's like, like, once you actually start studying this, I actually felt like it might have been overkill as a podcaster to do this, because it's like once you start researching it, you see how many people actually do talk about it oh yeah.

Zach Humm: 48:33

Yeah, this is definitely in the uh, conspiracy theory podcast wheelhouse, right, but I'm not looking at it like that at all. There's enough documentation here that the likelihood of these beings existed is almost absolute. It's just a matter of being able to put it in a biblical context and understand the reason why we're, as a society, don't want to talk about it.

Zechariah Eshack: 49:00

Yeah, and, and there's outside references, you know, it's not just the book of Enoch which you know. Obviously we don't consider to be canon. I think there's good reasons why to not consider it canon, like for sure, I think if someone were to try to make an argument for why it should be canon, I think it would. It would make sense for them to start, maybe with the book of watchers, since it sounds like it might be the one referenced by um in the book of Jude. I also am of the understanding that, um, that I know that Paul references pagan works, you know, maybe just to make a point. So just because it could be referenced in the Bible doesn't mean that they recognize it as scripture. So I think that that's important. But I also think too that, like here you have, like the Old Testament references them, flavius Josephus, you know, the notable historian, jewish historian, uh, jewish historian, um, uh, who, um, he wrote the antiquities of the Jews.

Zechariah Eshack: 49:55

But like him as well, like he, I think he was one of maybe he might've been the only one, or maybe there might've been two left after the destruction of Jerusalem, because he was the Jew who actually was um, one of the leaders who would actually talk with both the Romans and the Jews trying to like do negotiations. But, yeah, he was one of the leaders who would actually talk with both the Romans and the Jews trying to like do negotiations. But, yeah, he was one of the ones who survived and he's a very well respected historian. But, like you know, he makes a reference to the giants and doesn't sound like that. He doesn't sound like he's mentioning as hyperbole, like it's just like almost like it's a known fact. So it's just the outside references are just astounding and also too, like you said, around the world, like even some of the jugs that they find that are just massive, that like human beings can't even pick up, like water jugs, and you're like, why is there like hundreds of them around here? What purpose do they serve?

Zach Humm: 50:47

Yeah, there's a lot of times where that stuff comes at volume right, where it's not just a one off, and so there's a lot of evidence that it wasn't, you know, a deformity. It was. It was an entire race of beings.

Zechariah Eshack: 51:00

Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. So before we close up, I mean, was there anything else you wanted to kind of touch on?

Zach Humm: 51:09

No.

Zechariah Eshack: 51:09

I don't think so.

Zach Humm: 51:10

I think we did a great job today kind of touch on.

Zechariah Eshack: 51:13

No, I don't think so. I think we did a great job today. Yeah, I think we covered a lot of ground. So, um, yeah, I really appreciate you coming on. I mean, this subject is one I'm sure I'm going to study more. Um, but it, like I said before, it does kind of put it into a different light for me just seeing that like, okay, so the destruction of these tribes it wasn't just because you know, it wasn't just because they weren't israelites. A lot of it was because of the, the ritual, pagan practices, the child sacrifice and, according to the old testament, you know, the intermingling with fallen angels. So so it's like obviously they're destroying that grace because they're trying to either exterminate Israel or prevent God's promise from coming to fruition. So, but yeah, thanks again for coming on today. I really enjoy talking about giants with you. I'm excited to have you back on again. So, thanks again, Zach. I appreciate you coming on. It's always a pleasure.

Zach Humm: 52:11

Zech, thanks for having me.