Heavenly Hierarchies

Zechariah Eshack: 0:00

Welcome to the Restless Theologian podcast, where we focus on having insightful conversations in biblical history and theology. I'm your host, Zechariah Eshack, for our fourth episode of Season 3, we're going to be discussing angels. Episode of season three. We're going to be discussing angels, so we're going to be going into the nature of angels and more specifically, I guess more actually, more generally, would be heavenly hosts. So we're going to be diving into that. What some of the misconceptions are, what some of the key players that are mentioned in the Bible, what their names are, what their names mean. So, to unpack this with me, today, I have my good friend, Zach Humm back on with us. How are you doing, Zach?

Zach Humm: 0:48

I'm doing great, zach. How are you doing?

Zechariah Eshack: 0:50

Doing good, doing good. I'm excited about this one. It's definitely a lot, because there's a lot of different directions. I felt like I could go with it.

Zach Humm: 0:58

Yeah, I'm sure we'll end up talking about 10% of what we actually want to today, and that's totally okay.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:03

Yeah, yeah, and a part of me too was wondering how much of extra biblical like um. When I say extra biblical, I mean more of apocryphal writings, whether or not I wanted to bring that into the picture or not, we'll. We'll kind of talk about it and um kind of dive into a little bit of Enoch, just cause it. I feel like it always comes up in these conversations.

Zach Humm: 1:23

Yeah, it provides a little bit of extracurricular context.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:28

You can do it with what you will, yeah yeah, so the common term that we understand is angel. That's what we always refer to In our minds. We kind of think of that as a broad term to mean any angelic being or heavenly or spiritual being. But I've been reading this book by Dr Michael Heiser called Angels and he's got a really good series. He's got several actually on YouTube that you can find. I watched his series on angels is maybe a little over an hour. So, like the term angel itself is actually referring to more of a job function, meaning messenger, and it comes from the Hebrew word malak, not to be confused with Moloch.

Zach Humm: 2:17

Big difference, yeah, big difference.

Zechariah Eshack: 2:20

And also to likewise the Greek word meaning Angelos. So anytime when the Bible is being translated, especially into English, it seemed that like a lot of translators decided to just use kind of that blanket or broad term of angel, almost to kind of refer to any heavenly being, which is kind of inaccurate when you actually look at the original Hebrew. And Dr Heiser's good at talking about that, yeah for sure.

Zach Humm: 2:51

That was something I came across a bit when I was doing my research as well. One thing about the Greek word it's always masculine. There's a it, just like in Spanish, there's a masculine and a feminine version of words, and the word for angel is always masculine, and you always see that angels are portrayed as men throughout the Bible as well.

Zechariah Eshack: 3:13

I think you're right. It's predominantly always in the masculine and you don't really see any sort of feminine angelic beings, which is kind of a little bit of a contrast with what like pop culture and what a lot of um images that we see, um like paintings and everything they're usually they're like very feminine.

Zach Humm: 3:35

Oh yeah, or I'm in on a harp, yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 3:38

Or they're like baby cherubs, which is um obviously a very inaccurate depiction. Right there is the term archangel and in the Bible, from what I've read, is that Michael the archangel is the only one that's explicitly called an archangel.

Zechariah Eshack: 3:58

Tradition holds that Gabriel is also an archangel. Not really sure where that's being derived from or how they've come to that conclusion, but that's according to tradition and that's what they believe about Gabriel. Now Michael. What's the interesting thing about him is, I believe, that he is the. His name actually means who is like God, and Michael, as we know, is the one who's Israel's protector, and he also is the one who fights against a dragon in Revelation 12, seven through nine, um. So I found that that really fascinating, because it's when you think about the passage about um the last day, and about the, the trumpet sound and the voice of the archangel. I mean, I think it's not a stretch to sit there and say that that's most likely going to be Michael.

Zach Humm: 4:45

Yeah, I mean, he's certainly the, the one that's called out, as you know, the kind of the warrior angel, yeah, and even in, like Enoch, you, you read his position and how he was set out to protect Enoch or Noah, noah, rather, the, the, the archangels that were called out, kind of set out to give Noah some space to to build his boat so that he could get earth back on track, essentially. So you know, in the Bible you read, you read about Michael being a warrior, and then outside of it you hear the same types of stories.

Zechariah Eshack: 5:23

So yeah, michael also was. Um, he was the one that was set to inform samyaza and to bind him. I think him and the others, I think azazel was one of them or one of the main. I think he was the main leader. Um, I know I'm jumping ahead a little bit, but one of the things I did find interesting about Azazel and this could be something the intertestamental period, where the Jewish writers of the book of Enoch it's kind of funny to me that they kind of pick up on like very obscure people referenced in the Old Testament.

Zach Humm: 6:02

One being Enoch.

Zechariah Eshack: 6:04

Obviously, there's not a lot of reference to him, um other than I think he's noah's grandfather, I think. But the other thing that I thought was interesting was that, um so leviticus 16, um describes yom kippur, and in yom kippur there's two goats, and it's noted that there's going to be one for the lord and one for azazel, and so the two goats, or the goats, are offered, one for the lord and one for azazel, and it's believed that azazel is a demonic being yeah, what's interesting about that is azazel is kind of held as the one that um gave humanity a lot of the hidden knowledge, things like metalworking and cosmetics and warfare.

Zach Humm: 6:51

It's some of the stuff that perhaps, if you didn't eat off of the tree of knowledge that might not have made its way into humanity and corrupted it. So it's interesting that they're giving sacrifice to the one who bestowed godly knowledge outside of God's will.

Zechariah Eshack: 7:14

Yeah, and I think some have even speculated that Azazel in that context of that sacrifice was Azazel is like a stand-in for Lucifer and some have actually speculated that, which is really bizarre, a bizarre narrative. I think it kind of coincides with I'll have to look up the theologian. It was probably a little bit pre-Reformation period, but there was a church theologian who his view, I think, of substitutionary atonement was very different in the sense that, like, obviously Christ gave himself as a ransom and the ransom that he was paying was to basically the devil, which is really bizarre. I mean, I don't think that. That's definitely I don't think it's an Orthodox belief as far as I can tell. I would love to dive a little bit deeper into that in another episode.

Zach Humm: 8:06

That's an interesting one.

Zechariah Eshack: 8:07

Yeah, as I mentioned, gabriel is another supposed archangel. His name means God is my strength, and he's the one who also appears to Daniel. And there is a passage that Heiser brings up, that that there's this man who is speaking to gabriel. I think it's maybe like by the river, but basically he's speaking to um gabriel, this man, this unnamed man that daniel's witnessing, and the man is telling gabriel to basically explain everything to daniel. And what I found kind of interesting about that is that it's believed that it's the angel of the Lord, and the angel of the Lord is a very peculiar one, just because I think there's a lot of theories around it. Have you heard any theories about it?

Zach Humm: 9:00

Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because that's something that I wanted to talk about today. So the angel of the Lord is an interesting one, because the angel of the Lord doesn't appear as an angel. So the angel of the Lord, the first time the angel of the Lord is mentioned is in the story of Hagar. The angel of the Lord finds him, and when the angel speaks it's speaking directly to Hagar, as though it is God speaking through the, through the angel, and you kind of hear that same type of thing. It happened several times in the early part of the, the old Testament Um, so uh, he also showed.

Zach Humm: 9:37

The angel of the Lord also shows up, um, when Abraham sacrificing Isaac, and also, you know, through uh, through to Moses in Exodus is the burning bush. And whenever the angel of the Lord speaks, typically it sounds like it's God speaking through the angel of the Lord. So it's almost a precursor. Some people think that maybe it could even be Jesus speaking. And you also, later in Acts, you kind of hear that the spirit of the Lord starts to speak as well. So there's kind of the Lord communicating in a Trinity type of way too. So before Jesus, as the angel of the Lord, through Jesus, manifest, as man on earth and then later through spirit, which I thought was interesting. So there's kind of a Trinity of communication there. Oh, wow, yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 10:36

That's very fascinating. I love that you brought up the whole Moses thing, cause I wanted to get into that too. Um, okay, yeah, so, like with the angel of the lord, there was another occurrence that I was. I was watching a podcast recently on blurry creatures and they had a guy on that was talking about the similarities between the story of samson and the story of jesus and I did love like some of the parallels that they had mentioned, but one of them was the announcement of from an angel to Samson's mother that she's going to be with child and it's supposedly the same thing.

Zechariah Eshack: 11:11

Angel of the Lord Heiser brings this up, and I thought it was an interesting connection and possibility that the destroyer mentioned in Egypt. In Egypt, like, the uniqueness of Moses's birth obviously was right around the time that they, that Pharaoh, believed that the prophecy that there's going to be a redeemer and deliverer coming to the Hebrews and that's why he sets out to have every firstborn male or, I'm sorry, newborn male slaughtered. And it's kind of interesting that it is a little bit more of an eye for an eye thing exactly going on, because I mean, that's the last plague that god does on the egyptians was the death of the firstborn son, and so some believe that the destroyer is also the angel of the lord, which could potentially be christ, that actually, in that context, is out there killing the firstborn and that's pretty bizarre to think about.

Zechariah Eshack: 12:10

Yeah, did you come across that at all in your research?

Zach Humm: 12:14

No, that's the first time I've heard that, but that's super interesting just to wrap your mind around that one, right, yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 12:20

Yeah, um, and the same thing too, with an angel of the Lord. I believe was the one who visited Herod and kills Herod. So it fits the same figure, the same angel of the Lord. The other comparison that I wanted to mention real quick was so you brought up the burning bush narrative and that you know when I watch, like the ten commandments with charles, have you seen it? Yeah, I watched. I went back and watched some of it recently, uh, around easter, and how the, how the burning bush is depicted. It's just burning, but you're saying that like you can see the angel of the lord in the burning bush, right?

Zach Humm: 13:04

Well.

Zechariah Eshack: 13:06

Or the angel of the Lord is speaking.

Zach Humm: 13:08

Okay. So Exodus 3, 1 through 2, it says the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within the bush. Okay, and then later in Exodus 3, 4, it says then God called to him from within the bush. So the apparition appears first and then God speaks through it.

Zechariah Eshack: 13:29

Okay, gotcha? Yeah, because when Moses approaches the burning bush and then Yahweh tells him or the angel of the Lord speaking on Yahweh's behalf, however you want to look at it tells him to take his sandals off, for where he's standing is holy ground, and that that sort of language, that exact like phrase, is also in um the story of Daniel, when I told you how like Gabriel, how he's um being told by a man in the distance to you know, as Daniel's witnessing this, to explain everything to Daniel. So Gabriel goes over, but later on the man directly speaks to Gabriel himself and one of the things he says is to take his sandals off, for where he's standing is holy ground. And so there's that idea that the angel of the Lord is also this um, almost just like warrior angel, and I know that that's not the way like it's, it provides a whole new context, because if that really is Christ, I mean we don't really think about Christ in those terms, right, like?

Zach Humm: 14:43

we think about revelation right Riding in right.

Zechariah Eshack: 14:45

Right Riding in. Yeah, right, yeah, I guess that that would correlate. And I think that he describes the man too. Actually, um, I'll I'll have to pull this up, but he describes the man as um, like his color, like his eyes of fire and his and his skin like the uh, the tone of, like burnt bronze, and I'm pretty sure that that's the way Revelation describes Christ. You know, obviously, the rider on the white horse, you know the king of kings and lord of lords, and I think, in Daniel's context, I think that they it calls him the prince of princes, which I guess would I mean that sounds like similar language.

Zach Humm: 15:28

Right, like prince of princes, which I guess would I mean that sounds like similar language right, like prince of princes, king of kings, lord of lords, all three of those, yeah, yeah I'll have to dive deeper into this narrative at another time, since I kind of only touched the surface.

Zechariah Eshack: 15:38

But about the story of daniel there, um, but one of the things was the idea of territorial spirits. So my michael the archangel gets help from gabriel to fight the prince of persia. Now I don't think that that means the actual prince of persia like the human being, but that there's actual prince, um, meaning like an angel, probably obviously a fallen angel. Right, that is, that is territorial, that that's his land. Right, and that was something I never really thought of before was territorial angels.

Zach Humm: 16:14

Yeah, that's something I've kind of thought a little bit about. Throughout the world, you kind of see these different pockets of civilization that have popped up and they kind of tell the same stories all at the same period but, you know, across vast distances. So it's almost as if those beings were trying to, you know, claim dominion over different areas of the world. At that time was that in the Koran that Gabriel appeared and he was the one who supposedly delivered messages to Muhammad? Okay, so you kind of see malevolent and righteous, yeah, yeah.

Zach Humm: 17:05

Malevolent righteous beings, malevolent righteous angels communicating with each other, trying to bring messages across the world. The fallen angels almost are always perceived as deceivers. Yeah, so I think that's that's something that's important to think about. Just even in our modern society. I think it's really easy for us to be hoodwinked a lot of the times between the news and the stories. You know, it seems like conflict is is a thing that's pretty persistent in our society right now, and the new stories that come up they're just typically just made to try to, you know, get people against each other, and I always think that's interesting that perhaps there's some sort of deception behind the way things are being communicated in an effort to continue to try to control us yeah, like there's fallen angels at play that are maybe intentionally trying to deceive and use people to deceive.

Zechariah Eshack: 18:02

You know whether it's the media or whoever to try to use people to deceive. You know whether it's the media or whoever? To try to get people to not focus on the big picture but to fight amongst themselves.

Zach Humm: 18:12

Yeah, it's easier to conquer a group of people when they're against each other, you know.

Zechariah Eshack: 18:16

Yep, yeah, for sure, um, what you said about, uh Gabriel supposedly visiting um muhammad, so yeah, that's definitely a possibility that, like, like, obviously I don't, you know, neither of us believe in the quran or believe that it's, you know, equal to scripture, right, and so we would hold that it's um, that it's possible that maybe a fallen angel displayed himself or showed up as um, as gabriel I also think too that they're um.

Zechariah Eshack: 18:50

So ruach was a hebrew term that heiser brought up, just meaning I think it means spirits or disembodied spirit, and there's a couple different stories in the old testament and that he brings up about, like when the heavenly council is talking amongst themselves and one of them so each of them kind of proposed different ideas of how to make this king fall and obviously caused his death and obviously caused his death, and one of the angelic hosts or heavenly hosts basically says I'll be a lying spirit to basically his counselors.

Zechariah Eshack: 19:35

And so he's intentionally saying I'm going to be a lying spirit and be a deceiver. And so there's also passages in scripture and even I think this might be 1 be first or second Thessalonians I think it might be second Thessalonians where it talks about God sending a deception to the people, um, and I think it's through the man of like lawlessness. So, um, I think we often look at deception as always being an evil thing and something that the you know, the fallen angels do, but we don't really think about it being something that that God himself or his angelic host do and still maintain like their righteous and holy status.

Zach Humm: 20:15

Yeah, if you want to stretch a little bit outside of the Bible, you kind of read a little bit about how Gabriel during the time of Noah as well he was inciting war amongst the offspring of the Watchers and trying to cause conflict between them in order to distract them from attacking Noah, which I thought was something interesting. So Gabriel was doing this. Yeah, so Gabriel was doing a little bit, know, pitting people against each other too, so yeah, you know it's not necessarily always a bad thing.

Zach Humm: 20:48

You know he used that um tactic as a way to kind of distract his enemies. So okay, kind of goes both ways yeah yeah, that's really interesting to think about.

Zechariah Eshack: 20:59

You finished the house of david on prime right, no, no, okay, one of the things I was going to mention about the house of david was, I mean, I'm sure you know from the the biblical narrative about the, about that spirit that was sent to saul to torment him, and the question is is like, is it a malevolent spirit, is it evil spirit, or is it a heavenly spirit meant to come to torment him? I guess that's kind of a good question because, like I said, it's like some of these things where it's like causing death, where it's like the angel of the Lord is killing the firstborn Angels come to Sodom and Gomorrah in the appearance of men, like two men, and obviously reign judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah. So it's like we always kind of have this perception in our mind that these angelic beings, like you said at the beginning, you know, have their little harps and just very, um, always peaceful, and that's not really the way the Bible portrays them.

Zach Humm: 21:59

No, no, not at all, it's. Uh, you know they're deliverers, they're um warriors warriors, enforcers of of the word. You know, yeah, Um, jesus's army. You know you can, you can see all sorts of different types of things and it's not, you know, they're not just trying to Kumbaya and have a good time around the fire. They're out there doing the hard work and pushing things in ways that we can't really understand.

Zechariah Eshack: 22:32

Yeah, and just how active they are in the fight. So one of the words I wanted to we're going to jump to cherubim and seraphim next, but before we do, I wanted to talk about just briefly a couple different terms. One of the terms was Elohim. Heiser brings up that Elohim in scripture means obviously God or gods. The way we perceive it from our modern perspective is that when we think of Elohim, we always think of God and himself, as in Yahweh, as an omnipresent, omniscient, all of these characteristics that come with him. And so when we think of since the Bible, the Old Testament, refers to Elohim, like there's one Elohim, obviously, and then it also talks about Elohims where it's talking about the angelic host. So it's like it's like a lower G, gods and um, not that they're, they are gods, but like I think that that's the term that's being used, because there's a passage in the new Testament where Jesus says did I not say that ye are gods?

Zechariah Eshack: 23:44

um, there's something about like you know, but you're going to die, like men and I thought that that was kind of fascinating to think about, just because it is true. When we think of god, we just obviously we know, as christians there's only one true god and one that's um eternal, and that's another thing about these angelic beings is they're created and they're not eternal, even though they could be immortal, meaning they can't die, um, but yeah, so I just wanted to touch on that briefly. And then we're going to go to cherubim and seraphim, which are so cherubim, um, they're like multi-winged creatures that guard God's presence, and we kind of see that they're the ones that are in charge of Eden's gate in the Old Testament and they're the ones that are actually on the Ark of the Covenant. And also, too, in Ezekiel's vision I know that that's one we're probably going to have an episode about specifically. So in Ezekiel's vision, the cherubim have four faces man, lion, ox and eagle and have four wings. What I thought was kind of crazy about the whole four faces thing, man, lion, ox and thing, man, lion, ox and eagle is that's how the four gospels are portrayed. Actually, is man, calf, um, lion and eagle? So I mean, I don't think it's a stretched calf and ox. They seem kind of similar. You know what I mean. So I thought that that was really cool to to think about that correlation there.

Zechariah Eshack: 25:21

So the interesting thing about the cherubim and seraphim is that they're not angels because they're not like messengers. I mean, they're part of the heavenly host, heavenly beings, and they're like these throne room guardians and then the seraphim. So from what I know is that the cherubim have four wings, while the seraphim have six. They're usually portrayed as having six wings and they're always praising God and there's two different possibilities of the Hebrew root of the word seraph, meaning to burn, and the word seraph can mean fiery serpent, and it's sometimes conceived that they're like burning serpents or fiery beings and they're always around God's throne proclaiming holy, holy, holy. And so the six wings like two cover their face, two the feet and two are meant to fly.

Zechariah Eshack: 26:18

But what I thought was kind of crazy is the idea that I've always thought that Satan himself, lucifer, was a cherubim, and I guess that's not the case. I guess tradition they believe that he's an archangel, but I don't think there's anywhere in scripture that actually gives his actual rank among the heavenly hosts. They just say he's high ranking. And so if seraphim means fiery serpents and Satan's appearance in the Old Testament narrative in the Garden of Eden. What I thought was really cool to think about was he's often called the serpent of old, the serpent that deceived Eve. So there could be a correlation there.

Zach Humm: 27:02

I'm not saying there is, but I definitely believe that it's possible, because if there have any sort of serpent-like appearance, that could explain um some of that context yeah, you think about, uh, references to the dragon too, and, like pop culture, dragons always breathe fire, so I think that's an interesting little correlation from more of a modern context.

Zechariah Eshack: 27:23

Yeah, and there, um, when you look up dragons too, that they're actually considered reptiles, which I thought was interesting, because that's, I mean, that's what a serpent is is a reptile.

Zechariah Eshack: 27:34

Right, um, so there's a lot of interesting connections there. So the um, cherubim and seraphim, they, they seem like they go where God goes, because when Yahweh uh descends, obviously and I think in the story of, like Daniel's vid, whether it's a vision or a dream um, it seems like the cherubim are with, always with God, same thing with the seraphim. It's almost like their. Their primary goal and duty is to, like worship god, always be around his presence, proclaiming his holiness as well as keeping out any unholiness from entering yes, I wonder if they're warriors as well, right or how, what their protection method is.

Zechariah Eshack: 28:23

Yeah. Next I wanted to touch on briefly was the idea of there being elect angels, because when we think of, like, the doctrine of election and predestination, we always think about it in terms of humanity, and so this is in 1 Timothy 5.21. Paul invokes quote God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, and so he makes that kind of passing reference of them being chosen or preserved, and then that's contrasted with the fallen angels in Jude 1-6 and 2 Peter 2-4. So, with the preservation of those angels, you have to think that there's, like this, free will to some degree.

Zechariah Eshack: 29:14

Obviously, as a Calvinist, the way we view free will is very different than like an Arminian perspective, but one of the things you think about, though, is the idea that, like, man had free will before the fall, and obviously it was by poor choice of his free will that he became enslaved to sin. So God obviously knew that they were going to fall and obviously allowed it, and the same thing with the fallen angels. But there's another passage in the New Testament about I think it might be Paul references back about how, in the Old Testament, that God preserved I think it was like 6,000 men who have not bowed the knee to Baal. So it's like he's doing the preservation there and the same thing with the angels in heaven he's preserving them from falling.

Zach Humm: 29:56

Yeah, you read in Galatians 1.8, you read that they still have free will, irregardless, and they can still be deceptors. So in Galatians it says let God's curse fall on anyone including us, or even an angel from heaven who presses different kind of good news than the one we preach to you. So you know, paul emphasizes there the importance of truth and that the angels still have the power to deceive. So that was interesting.

Zechariah Eshack: 30:27

Yeah, it's almost like that, the idea of deception. There's this idea of when God authorizes its use and to confound his enemies or to cause a certain chain of events to happen, and then there's also like the deception that's from the enemy, from the devil. Like um me and Corey kind of talked briefly about um, uh, morani, I think his name is. It was supposedly this angel that came to Joseph Smith, and so I had brought up what you had mentioned just a little bit ago about, like, even if it's Paul says, anyone who preaches a different gospel than what we've proclaimed to you, even if it's an apostle or an quote unquote angel from heaven, do not believe him, right? So that really sets us up for success when it comes to the story of what you were saying about Muhammad and the same story about Joseph Smith. It's kind of like you you see kind of a trend there that there's this angel supposedly from heaven, given this new revelation.

Zach Humm: 31:31

Yeah, it's a little, uh, tangential information, you know, and it's you have to to use your own spiritual discernment to understand what, what the truth is and what's. You know, what's the enemy preaching to you?

Zechariah Eshack: 31:45

Yeah, yeah, and see, um, if it coincides with God's word, just like how the? Um, the Bereans tested Paul's words by going back to you know, I'm sure they were reading the old Testament and trying to verify what Paul sings coincides, you know whether or not it's true. So I wanted to briefly we kind of already touched on this but the roles and functions of angels. So we see that messengers, as we said, you know, the very word angel means messenger, and the angel of the Lord, like you said, was a messenger to Hagar, was also a messenger to Samson's mother, telling her about that she's going to bear a son. And then Gabriel, even if he is an archangel, he played the role or function of a messenger, of an angel, which would make sense because if he is an archangel, the terms would still apply, because Gabriel is the one I believe Let me find it in my notes he's the one that interprets visions for Daniel and he's also the one that announces the birth of John as well as the birth of Jesus.

Zechariah Eshack: 32:58

In Luke one, there's also some extra biblical, you know, apocryphal, writings that reference two different archangels. I would love to dive deeper into it just to read the stories. But Uriel, and then there's also going to be. Raphael was another one, and I believe that they're in like primarily in Tobit, I believe. Yeah, you find out.

Zach Humm: 33:21

That's another one that you kind of find. Tobit, I believe. Yeah, you find out, that's another one that you kind of find out a little bit more. If you read Enoch a little bit Specifically, you kind of read again, going back to Noah a little bit, their role in helping God prepare Noah for the flood. So Raphael is kind of attributed with helping preserve seeds. So that's something you don't really think about. You hear about the animals all the time on on the boat but there's also a need to preserve the good and pure seeds that were originally created. Um, and then um. Uriel was attributed with actually helping Noah um with his construction and preparing him as well. So all four of them are specifically called out. You also kind of read that Enoch at one point he tried to see if God would help the fallen angels with their redemption and you read that God didn't really think that was too good of an idea yeah, you see it, michael, um bounds, um some samaja, is that how you say that?

Zach Humm: 34:34

I'm not really really sure. Oh, the fallen angel. Yeah, I think it's sim yaza sim yaza, yeah, yeah, you read that he, he binds him and um, that god. Basically you kind of get a little bit of context where the plan was for them to try to become God on earth and for their children to inherit. I guess immortality on earth was kind of what they were trying to go for.

Zach Humm: 34:59

Um and so God, not only he, basically you read that Michael basically bound the fallen angels and made enforced them to watch them slay their, their youth. So I thought that was an interesting story too.

Zechariah Eshack: 35:14

So you know the brute, the brutality of it is kind of crazy right, that is crazy yeah yeah, and it shows you how I guess wrathful god was with the fallen angels if the story is yeah, yeah, exactly yeah, you know, but I also think too that there's, even if, even if the book of enoch itself isn't scripture, um, there's also a lot of truth to the fallen angels, the fallen sons of God, in the Genesis 6 narrative.

Zechariah Eshack: 35:49

And then you progress further to the New Testament, in, I think, jude and I think that Paul talks about this as well is about how the fallen angels, how they're held in Tartarus until the last day, right, and I believe Tartarus is like a, is it actually like a Greek term? It always find it fascinating that they kind of use that the New Testament writers kind of use language that would have been well known and relevant to like um, like the common people, cause, I mean, greek was a pretty commonly spoken um language then, cause, even going back to the episode that we had um, the one I had with Corey about, um, the keys of the kingdom and about, like you you probably know this, cause it's the same Mount Hermon. So, yeah, with Mount Hermon, supposedly Jesus, the same Mount.

Zechariah Eshack: 36:42

Hermon, yeah, yeah, with Mount Hermon. Supposedly Jesus is near Mount Hermon or on on Mount Hermon when he makes that statement. You know, on this rock I'll build my church and obviously I hold that. The rock is Peter's confession of faith, as many of the early church fathers do, or some of them hold like a. They can hold two meanings the rock could be Christ, rock could be also Christ confession of faith.

Zechariah Eshack: 37:06

But one of the things I wanted to briefly touch on, just cause I have was thinking of it recently, is about the Greek term Hades, and just because it's like well, supposedly with Mount Hermon, they believe that that was the gates of Hades, that that was like an entryway near, you know, like a cave that would lead to Hades, and so it literally could he could also be have a double meaning of being on this rock that I'm standing on, that everyone believes that is Hades. Even the gates of Hades cannot overcome the church. So I don't think that that's, I don't think it's a necessity or requirement that the church is infallible and can't make mistakes, mistakes. I just think that the church is always going to, uh, there's always going to be a remnant and every age there's always going to be a church and there's always going to be um, uh, they're always going to overcome and persevere, and I think that that's kind of a little bit of a side story, but I wanted to get into just the idea of the Greek terms being used.

Zechariah Eshack: 38:08

Yeah, tartarus was very interesting. I don't know a lot about it. Do you know anything about?

Zach Humm: 38:13

it. I mean, from what I know about it, it's a basically just a substitution for hell, Like it's the same thing. So, um, essentially that it's a place that's void of god and filled with darkness.

Zechariah Eshack: 38:25

That's about what I know about it yeah, yeah, because well, I I guess too there could be a difference, possibly, between a place that's full of darkness, where they're being held in chains and then also they're awaiting judgment, and then maybe because the bible does talk about hell being a place reserved for the devil and his angels. So sometimes I get a little bit confused on that, like because I'm like, are they in hell now or are they just in this waiting place, almost like like what I said, like kind of like, just think of it as a dark jail cell, just in total water, waiting for the day of judgment.

Zach Humm: 39:05

Yeah, yeah that was one of the things that I came across a little bit while I was going through. This was um, you kind of see that when jesus comes to earth, there's um you read a few times in scripture where there's beings that are corrupt souls, essentially like in the synagogue. One of them comes up to Jesus and basically just says he basically feels like it's the day of judgment because he recognizes Jesus.

Zechariah Eshack: 39:39

That's right, yeah, yeah.

Zach Humm: 39:42

But that moment didn't didn't quite come yet.

Zechariah Eshack: 39:44

So yeah, yeah, because what does he say? Have you um? You could be talking about the um. I know tim alberino always talks about the um. He has a specific phrase for it demoniac um, basically the one. I think that might be legion. That, for they are many yeah and that's the one that jesus cast out into the pigs, out of the person and into the pigs. But one of the things he says was what? What do we have to do with you, jesus, son of god, like have?

Zechariah Eshack: 40:15

you come to torment us before the time yeah, that's a really good.

Zach Humm: 40:19

That's exactly what the passage I was thinking of was it okay. Yeah, that's in uh, that's in matthew, it's a math yeah, okay and then, uh, the same type of thing happens in mark too. Um, you know where there's a spirit like that and he comes across jesus and he believes it's the time of judgment okay, yeah, it is kind of crazy to think about when jesus has these interactions, too, with the?

Zechariah Eshack: 40:41

um disembodied spirits that are like demons. Yeah, that he tells them, as well as some of the people he heals to not to not say anything about who he is right.

Zach Humm: 40:53

It's really kind of interesting. I don't know why he does that, yeah like it's.

Zechariah Eshack: 40:57

it's kind of like like he warns them not to. He says he'll make a statement like you know, or else something worse will come upon you, and so it's like they're almost like told to be silent. And I don't know about disembodied spirits. When it comes to, like, this idea of demons inhabiting people, do you think that it's more of the disembodied spirits of the fallen angels or the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim, since they're, since they're this hybrid, because I think Tim Albarino seems like he holds that it's, uh, the the spirits of the Nephilim and that you know, even though their physical bodies die, their spirits don't. And since they don't obviously go to heaven and they're kind of awaiting judgment, that they're just cursed to roam the earth.

Zach Humm: 41:50

Yeah, it's weird to think about. Right, there's a with that type of train of thought. There's almost like a parallel dimension where these beings exist but we can't physically see them, but they're here still and you wonder if maybe that's hell on a level too, where you're here but you have no interaction, you have complete separation for God and you're just kind of stuck. You read a little bit about how horrible it is if you're the kind of person who just goes through life unthinking and doing things like an animal. Yeah, you have to wonder if that's the same kind of parallel existence that that those spirits have where they.

Zechariah Eshack: 42:34

they're here, they exist, but they don't have the spirit of life in them yeah, and they, it's almost like they can't have any sort of gratification right, or any satisfaction with anything, and that was something I thought.

Zechariah Eshack: 42:47

Um, I know I'm keep bringing them up, but blurry creatures, um, and like I've I've talked about before I don't really get into the ufo stuff, bigfoot stuff, but they've had a lot of interesting people on to talk about the nephilim and the fallen angels and one of the things like tim albarino will will talk about, he thinks that, um, demons are obviously the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim and he believes that they were cursed and I think that he might be pulling this information from the book of Enoch but like that they're cursed to have um, uh, like lust as well, like lust for food, like lust for food, lust for women, um, basically, like they, they have these sort of um, uh, human type cravings that they cannot satisfy and that is why that that necessitates for them to try to possess another person is because so they can gratify, gratify their lusts, um sort of satisfy and satiate themselves with food. Um, you know, uh, obviously, uh, possibly women, stuff like that.

Zach Humm: 43:56

In in Jude, um, you kinda you kinda hear a little bit of the types of things that they do, cause they specifically mentioned, um, a few people. They mentioned Cain, who was riddled with jealousy. There's balam, who basically was filled with greed and desire, um, uh, cora, who basically wanted to become god and and turned on him, um, and they all essentially just died as a result from turning on god. And then you kind of read a similar thing where it's just like in Acts.

Zach Humm: 44:31

You read about Irenaeus and Sapphira and how they wanted to become followers of Christ but didn't fully give up all of their possessions. They were half-heartedly following him and not fully committing and trying to almost deceive the apostles in their following and they ended up being struck down and killed immediately for that type of deception. So it kind of shows you the types of things that could happen and then also the end result. So, in the same way, you kind of see in in Matthew four, um, that you know, when Satan was trying to get, tempt Jesus to jump off the temple in Jerusalem and have faith in the angels at on the level that you would have faith in God, um, you kind of you see that you I think it's maybe in society, people, people praying to angels, people looking to angels for protection, people elevating angels to the level of God yeah, and clearly that's not the way it's supposed to be.

Zechariah Eshack: 45:39

Yeah, Yep, and I think, going to the book of Revelation, right when John is having the angel speak with him, I think one of the first things John does is he falls on his face and prostrates himself and he tells him to get up Right, uh, the transfiguration scene where I think three of the disciples are watching, uh, watching this and watching Jesus. And then they see I think it's Moses and Elijah, you know like the physical representations of the law and the prophets. And then you know, I think it what. I'm pretty sure it was Peter. So Peter makes a reference that hey, let's build tabernacles for all three of you. And then God the Father speaks from heaven and says this is my son, Listen to him. So it's kind of like any time there's this misdirection where it's almost like you are trying to ascribe or try to serve beings other than God, Obviously God the Father comes in. It's like like this is my son, you listen to him, and I think that that's really cool to think about.

Zach Humm: 46:52

yeah, you talk like a hierarchy, right, you have god and jesus and the angels, right? So jesus is the leader, is basically you read in revelation he's basically the commander who's coming out and he's got the angel army behind him. I think it's easy. I think a lot of society maybe just elevates the angels higher than they should be and doesn't realize that they aren't perfect beings. Same thing with Satan, right, I think there's a lot of people who think Satan's the opposite of God, like, I think there's a lot of people who think Satan's the opposite of God, you know, and that's elevating an angel above Jesus all the way up to the level of God, where it's like good as God, evil as Satan. But they're not, they're not on equal ground by any means. And I think, just um, as people we tend to, you know, we, we want a con, we want like a equal opposite all the time, and there is no equal opposite of God. And I think it's just like a common thing that people might, might do a little bit.

Zechariah Eshack: 47:52

No, I agree with what you were saying about the elevating angels, cause there's that idea that, you know, each person has their own uh like guardian angel, and from what I've researched, that that's not really a biblical, um, that has no biblical grounding at all. I mean, there's the idea that in scripture it talks about angels maybe protecting believers and God's people, and I believe that that's true, but not necessarily a guardian angel for each individual, right, you know, that doesn't seem to be in the biblical narrative for us. So next, I kind of wanted to go into you know kind of transition from that, after we've kind of kind of did a good overview of kind of some of the, some of the overall purposes of angels. You know, I think that that that's, it's often misunderstood that, like, the only purpose of angels is to just be constantly singing and singing praises, like. But, as we've kind of went through the idea of, like heavenly beings and different, they're different ranks, and that there's um messengers, there's protectors, uh worshipers, um warriors, as we've kind of talked about, even with the angel of the lord, and then, um, but it's it's kind of cool to kind of dive deeper into that, because I think michael heiser is definitely right.

Zechariah Eshack: 49:17

We kind of focus on the bad guys a lot, you know, especially in media. I mean even me and and Katie's first date actually was watching the Conjuring, which is an interesting choice Because she's not really into horror movies. I'll watch them, especially if there's a good storyline to it. That's what's kind of interesting about horror movies. I don't really get into the whole slasher thing, you know, I don't think. I think to some degree to. Sometimes things that you watch can influence not influence, but maybe affect your mental state.

Zach Humm: 49:59

Oh yeah, for sure, and garbage in garbage out. Yeah, yeah. Garbage in, garbage out. Yeah, that's what I always say, yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 50:05

But for me, even when I wasn't as strict about what I watch as I am now, that type of stuff didn't really scare me. It was always the ones that had, somewhere in the storyline, demonic possession. And I think too, as believers, it's just we believe in the spiritual realm, so it kind of like I don't know. I think we just see the possibility or potential of some of these things happening in the world and kind of like how we would react to it If we came across someone who was actually demon possessed.

Zach Humm: 50:41

Just the idea of like, uh, demons and demon possession is just really a lot to take in because, you know, as believers, since you believe, believe that, yeah, that's real, it's a real thing that happens, yeah, yeah, I I feel like I see it more often than uh, you know, you look around and you see, you see what's going on in the world. It it's interesting times to be alive, that's for sure. Yeah, I think one of the things that I've kind of noticed I'm not trying to offend anybody here, but right now I think we're in a time in our society where there's almost toxic empathy, where it's just like people are so concerned about not hurting somebody's feelings that they're putting aside their Christian principles in order to accommodate that. And I think that that's, you know, part of part of the deception in another way, that maybe the world's going wrong that not everybody's really privy to.

Zechariah Eshack: 51:38

Yeah, it's. It's almost like there's this subtlety to it right Because. I think that that's why, like, it is an important point to bring up about that type of deception, because you are right about the toxic empathy, because you can see it, and I think the reason why it's had such an impact on a lot of American churches is because we want to be seen as peaceful, loving, kind, inclusive.

Zach Humm: 52:05

Yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 52:05

Just including everybody. But you know, but at the same time, do you do? Often see, sometimes the people that are most critical of those people that are, um, that hold to more of a biblical worldview in that regard, are oftentimes people that are self-professed, you know, they claim to be christians and they're usually the ones that are the most antagonistic about those who hold more of a um, biblical worldview of like, uh, marriage or um, you know, whatever the case may be, but like um. I think that that's why it's got such a foothold, because people don't really read, I think, the Gospels in such a way where, if they're even reading them at all, people that kind of hold to that more of a toxic empathy, like what you're saying it's almost like that they don't see the times when Jesus confronts the sin and tells them and scolds them, and often too like.

Zechariah Eshack: 53:05

I have had this experience in the past and I think, um, I've gotten a little bit better about watching how I talk with people, which I think is really important, but also, at the same time, I don't think you should be a coward, right, and I feel like that's very prevalent in our culture, because no one wants to offend anybody, right? But here you have Jesus and Paulul. They both make some pretty harsh statements right towards people that are, um, uh, trying to prey on, uh, christ's sheep, for example right.

Zach Humm: 53:34

Yeah, it's very. It's a difficult time to be a christian and yeah, you know um speaking up in a way that's not going to offend people but not letting people um people um put you down for put you down for what you believe in. You know there's uh, it's easy, it's easy to feel bad about what you believe in right now because speaking up, do you get beat down by society. A lot of times it's not necessarily what's in pop culture's view.

Zechariah Eshack: 54:04

Yeah, what? What's? What's the modern trend? That?

Zechariah Eshack: 54:06

was acceptable, yeah yeah, but truth doesn't change, correct, yeah? So I wanted to kind of go back a little bit to, because we did talk about archangels, we talked about the cherubim and seraphim, we talked about angels in general, and I know that we've talked a little bit about the Watchers, specifically Semyonza and Azazel. But what I found really interesting recently because I thought up until this point I had thought that the term Watchers was only in the Book of Enoch, but maybe where the authors are kind of picking up on that language is actually in the Book of Daniel, because it calls them Watchers, holy ones, um, they were the ones who decree nebuchadnezzar's fate, and um. The term could mean, I think, like watchful or wakeful ones, um, so, depending on um, because there's sometimes a little bit of confusion with terms as into, like what the being is versus what it does or what its purpose is.

Zechariah Eshack: 55:18

So like its nature versus its action, I guess would probably be a good way of putting it. Probably a good way of putting it, um, but I did find that an interesting correlation that, like because I didn't want to make it seem like the, the watchers, are always in a negative context, but obviously in this situation in the book of daniel, they are seen as holy ones and, um, it's almost like they're the ones tasked with, you know, watching over the earth and humanity as a whole, but we're not given really much insight into what the Bible says about it. It's the same thing with our archangels. I would say the archangels and the watchers are two different, um types of heavenly hosts that we don't really have a lot of insight into, except for, maybe you know, the apocryphal writing of the book of Enoch.

Zechariah Eshack: 56:03

And like I said, that's obviously with the caveat. Caveat that, you know, is it partially true, is it? You know? Yeah, um, tim albarino had an interesting. I watched a clip of him the other day and um, he was actually on michael knowles and um, but one of the things that he claims is that the reason why the book of Enoch isn't canon and why, like the Jews, in particular later on, after the death of Christ, rejected it, and hence why the Christians ended up rejecting it, is because, since they saw that the Jews rejected it, but the Jews, but the Jews rejected it supposedly because it refer references, prophecies about the son of man but cause it does use that term son of man, and I know you've read it, yeah, um, but I I sometimes wonder if it's actually.

Zechariah Eshack: 56:59

I'd like to dive deeper into whether or not it's actually prophecies about the son of man coming, or if it's just references to son of man, because I'm pretty sure that, uh, in the old testament, with the story of daniel, I believe that they call him son of man. But just because it's like it could just mean son of man, as I mean mankind or human being, right, but it could also mean because it was jesus, jesus's favorite self-designation it could be referring to the one son of man.

Zach Humm: 57:28

Yeah, or maybe that was just Jesus trying to refer to his humanity in a way that was a little bit more relatable to the Jews. Yeah.

Zechariah Eshack: 57:38

Yep. So, as we've discussed, you know, angels in Scripture are part of God's heavenly hosts and they serve different functions. You know, from warriors, worshipers to messengers, and you know they have different ranks archangels, cherubim, seraphim. It's definitely a lot to wrap your head around and I think that it kind of gives us a good contrast and a good understanding of the biblical view of angelic beings. And I think that that's really important because what we're kind of portrayed in media and also to there's a lot of misconceptions surrounding angels that they always have wings and just about the overall purpose and function of them.

Zechariah Eshack: 58:21

And I think it's a little bit misguided or, you know, a know a lot of times misunderstood, where I don't think angels are given the Heiser's right. Obviously, like I said before, people often focus on the bad guys and everything that they've done, but then I often feel like that the angels themselves are often like the righteous ones and often get overlooked and we don't really truly understand their purposes and their hierarchy. But hopefully, you know, after we've kind of unpacked this a little bit, I mean, I definitely love the discussion with you today but, yeah, definitely check out Dr Michael Heiser's work. Dr Michael Heiser is very interesting, I feel like if you're looking to go deeper into the origin of some of these stories, as well as the original Hebrew context, I feel like Heiser is a good place to start.

Zach Humm: 59:15

David Jeremiah has got an excellent book called Angels as well, If you're looking for a strictly biblical view of angels as well.

Zechariah Eshack: 59:24

I recommend that Nice, yeah, because I know Heiser goes into a little bit more of the ap angels as well. Okay, recommend that nice. Yeah, because I know heiser goes into a little bit more of the apocryphal writings and he'll also bring up a little bit more of um, uh, just the, the world that in the old testament. So he'll bring in some of what, like, pagans believed at the time about, uh, the heavenly world, yeah, um, so I feel like it brings a good context to it. I would say Heiser is definitely one I would disagree with on from an eschatological standpoint, but I definitely think that there's a lot more there I'd like to dive deeper into. But, yeah, thanks for joining us today. Was there anything else you wanted to briefly cover?

Zach Humm: 1:00:06

Yeah, I was just checking out your shirt there. Where could somebody get an awesome little shirt like that?

Zechariah Eshack: 1:00:11

Yeah, that's probably part of that. I always forget. You can go to TheRestlessTheologiancom and I've done some work on the site recently where you're now going to be able to find references to each of the episodes. So we'll include the references to the scripture passages as well as external references to books that are maybe quoted or brought up in each episode. So I'm trying to include that in the website that way, if anyone picks up on anything during an episode that they want to dive deeper into, that's a good resource for them. You can also find merch. Like you know, my shirt, um, you can also, uh, pick, pick that up there. So I appreciate you bringing that up. I always uh, you know, I always forget about it.

Zach Humm: 1:00:56

Yeah, well, I love wearing your merch. It's comfortable. Yeah, it's me well, I'm a big man and it all fits well.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:01:02

So well, I appreciate that. Yeah, they're screen printed too, so I try to go out of my way to make sure that it's decent quality. That's going to last a little while for people and sweet art that's worth checking out.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:01:12

Yeah, yeah, Jeremy Stout did an amazing job on, uh, two of the pieces, yeah, so I'm very happy that that he was willing and able to help me, um, you know, bring some of those um pieces to life. But, yeah, thanks again for being on today, Zach. I look forward to our next episode

Zach Humm: 1:01:27

Always a pleasure, looking forward to it, thanks.

Zechariah Eshack: 1:01:34

Thanks.

• Bavink, Herman. Reformed Dogmatics, Volume 3.

• Calvin, John. Institutes of the Christian Religion.

• Heiser, Michael S. The Unseen Realm: Recovering the Supernatural Worldview of the Bible.

• Horton, Michael. The Christian Faith: A Systematic Theology for Pilgrims on the Way.

• Kuyper, Abraham. The Work of the Holy Spirit.

• Vos, Geerhardus. Biblical Theology: Old and New Testaments.

• Westminster Larger Catechism, Questions 12–13.

• Scripture references: Genesis 3; Exodus 25; Deuteronomy 32:8–9 (LXX/Dead Sea Scrolls tradition); Job 1–2; Psalm 82; Isaiah 6; Ezekiel 1, 10, 28; Daniel 7; Matthew 18:10; Luke 20:36; Acts 12:15; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1–2; Revelation 4–5, 12.

1. What do we mean by “heavenly hierarchies”?

   Heavenly hierarchies refer to the ordered structure and roles within the angelic realm. While Scripture doesn’t give us a detailed taxonomy, it clearly teaches that there are distinctions among angels: cherubim, seraphim, archangels, and principalities, all serving different functions in God’s cosmic order.

2. Are angels all the same, or are there different types?

   There are indeed different types. The Bible refers to cherubim (e.g., Genesis 3), seraphim (Isaiah 6), archangels like Michael (Jude 9), and spiritual “powers and principalities” (Colossians 1:16). Some seem to be guardians, others messengers, worshipers, or even cosmic administrators.

3. What is the biblical evidence for angelic ranks or orders?

   Passages such as Colossians 1:16 and Ephesians 6:12 list terms like thrones, dominions, rulers, and authorities. Daniel 10 speaks of “princes” over nations. Psalm 82 hints at a divine council. While it’s not a strict hierarchy like later medieval schemes proposed, Scripture does imply a multi-leveled celestial order.

4. What roles do angels play in God’s providence?

   Angels are ministers of God’s will. They deliver messages (e.g., to Mary and Zechariah), execute judgment (as in Sodom), guard the people of God (Psalm 91:11), and worship God perpetually (Revelation 4–5). They serve both in heaven and on earth as executors of divine providence.

5. Are angels involved in salvation history?

   Yes, but not as redeemers. Angels are witnesses and servants in redemptive history. They ministered to Christ (e.g., after His temptation and in Gethsemane), proclaimed the resurrection, and rejoice at the repentance of sinners (Luke 15:10). They support but do not enact salvation.

6. Should Christians be concerned with identifying or ranking angels?

   Scripture cautions against obsession or speculation (Colossians 2:18). The goal is not to classify angels like trading cards but to be in awe of God who commands such beings. Angels always direct attention away from themselves and toward the glory of God.

• Book: The Unseen Realm by Michael Heiser — Offers a scholarly yet accessible exploration of the divine council worldview rooted in Scripture.

• Article: “Angelology” in the Lexham Survey of Theology — A solid overview of the theological categories surrounding angels.

• Video: "What Do Angels Do?" – A lecture from Ligonier Ministries exploring biblical texts about angelic functions.

• Podcast: Reformed Forum – Vos Group episodes covering Old Testament theology and heavenly visions.

• Catechism Study: Westminster Larger Catechism Questions 12–13 — Helps frame angels within a Reformed theological perspective.